Ross_McNeillHi Grahame,
Compared to 10,000 or so sea losses, it’s less than 1,000 for UK inland.
The bulk are in the river estuaries but this mostly comprises of mud so you will need to add a sub bottom profiler to the kit bag.
A few in English lakes but not many and these are relatively well known due to the population proximity.
Cumbria had surprisingly very little but I suspect it was due to the low number of overflights due to the mountains.
This leaves Scotland on the mainland and the best known places are well mapped due to the monster hunters.
Given a choice I would look to Lough Fermanagh and the seaplane mooring/alighting areas, however the mooring maintenance crews were quite adept at grapple fishing.
After that the Firths in descending order would be Solway. Clyde and Forth all have extensive groups of losses in narrow areas.
The Clyde has the added advantage of the scuttled Mariners and Sunderlands off Ardrossan as Asdic targets. For the Forth the added advantage is the lost gold baggage.
Both the Forth and the Clyde have their respective aircraft carriers.
For River then the Servern has the most number from the Bridges to Worcester but again mud flats are the order of the day.
Pick a destination then drop me a line and I’ll give you the printout for the location. I owe you one for dropping be on the M2 as one of ny first open water dives back in the day.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillTo use a forum phrase..
It’s all in the book
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2251377/Aircraft-Crash-Sites-at-Sea-a-Scoping-Study-project-report
I see that you are also listed as one of the contributors to the survey.
My numbers included inland water losses.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThat’s why I suggested it.:D
Err …if you mean the rectangular object on Google Earth at 50°49’31.76″N 0°23’51.90″E thats the sluice outfall. The dispersed wreck is slightly further out.
Apart from EF311 and it’s outings on the Forums, BF516 is the Stirling off the Sussex coast that still shows signs of still being there with what turns up on the beach in the vicinity of Sluice Lane after big storms.
(I see from Google search on Striling EF311 that it’s almost 2 years to the day that BF455 came up previously here)
Ross
Ross_McNeillThere you go!
Claim salvage rights/salvor in possession based on previously landed material with the receiver of wreck and go for the rest.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillNow if he fancies a bit of research before getting wet how about:
Hydrographer Wreck No.
013703390
Position Approximate
50 49 30.0 N
000 24 30.0 E
My notes:
10/8/43
BF516
Plotted on 536, 19/08/98
No chart symbol in this position
Details requested from H.O.
Wreck Files.
12/09/75
Permission has been given for the recovery of a Stirling from approx NG TQ 689054 (S4C(AIR)ROOM 0/3 Metropole Bldg).
RAF PMA Letter to R McNeill 24/02/98
No record of licence issued and no confirmation of recovery. (RAFPMA Letter PMA/133159/4(CS)1b(2)a(RAF) dated 24/02/98).
“August 11th – Eastbourne, Sussex.
At 05:24 in the morning the coastguard telephoned that an aeroplane had come down in Pevensey Bay and asked that the lifeboat crew should standby. A light westerly wind was blowing, with a moderate sea. Twenty minutes after the first message the lifeboat was asked to go to the aeroplane, which was a quarter of a mile off Pevensey Sluice. The motor lifeboat ‘Jane Holland’ was launched at 6:05 am. She picked up a rubber dinghy and some of the crew of the aeroplane were rescued by an RAF launch. The lifeboat returned to her station at 08:10 am.
Rewards £8 14s.”
(Source: Supplement to Annual Reports of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution 1939-46)
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillSorry Martin but by the time it was written up in the Dive Series it had been recorded as dispersed.
The bread crumb trail from the Hydroggies office is:
My notes from 1998
Plotted on 1652, 12/08/98.
Charted as 8.8m wreck.
Details requested from H.O.
Reply
Wreck Files.
H1247/70 18/05/70
A four engined bomber upside down with two very large wheels and one wing. All engines are there.
Least depth over wreck 5 fathoms 1 foot in 504624N, 001436W, height above sea bed is 8 feet.
Located by Brighton and Worthing BSAC when they had to recover a trawl off her. (DW Peckham letter dated 17/05/70).
H3221/70 14/08/70
Confirmed as multi-engined aircraft after examination by ARL Scanner.
Decca position RED A 0.56, PURPLE B 75.72 (SW Brit on L(D1) 2450 only).
Position 504621N, 001400W, height above sea bed approx 6 feet (RV Clione May 1970).
H3221/70 20/01/71
Highest part stands 9 feet above seabed from sector scanner. (Mr Hardon-Jones RV Clione 14/01/71).
03/04/78 Theoretical Decca RED 2A 0.58, GREEN A 30.32, PURPLE H 75.72 (SW Brit). RED A 19.93, GREEN J 45.64, PURPLE C 60.53 (Eng).
H1965/76 03/12/80
Nothing found during intensive search within 400 metres of position. (Bulldog HI 37A/77-Wk 160)
No chart action.
D Sussex 152 (Rev 1989)
Found by by Brighton and Worthing BS-AC in 1970, this aircraft was upside down with her wheels down at 50 46 21; 00 14 00. The divers found her when recovering a trawl for a local fisherman which had caught on the wreckage. Though all the engines were there, one wing appeared to be missing. She stood 2m off the seabed, but is now widely scattered.
To complete this is from the ORB
“Stirling III BF455 captained by F/Sgt Rothschild was hit over the target by AA fire and also chased by enemy fighters.
This caused him to run short of petrol over the English Channel on the way home, and he eventually crash landed in the sea, 3 miles off Shoreham.
The wireless procedure had been perfect, and Spitfires escorted it from the French coast and a Walrus flying boat was waiting for it to crash land.
Dinghy drill was perfect and all the crew got in safely after an immaculate landing – the Stirling floating for 25 minutes.
The final scene was enacted in the Channel as the Walrus collided with the dinghy and dropped all the crew in the sea. No ill-effects except for Sgt Grainger, the flight engineer, who suffered from shock.”
AIR27/646
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillAll the details are out there – just not on the net for easy view from the desk chairs.
I’ll transfer some detail from old fashioned paper onto digital for your viewing pleasure.
First the Form 1180 Accident Card. Copyright RAF Museum Hendon
http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/9_1_1942/AN536.pdf
Now the Air Investigation Branch Report. Copyright The National Archives
http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/TNA/W1165.pdf
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe TV programme was called Spacecadets and the missiles used for the set dressing at Bentwaters were Thunderbirds from Hanningfield Metals at Stock.
http://www.corestore.org/scrap.htm
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe clue is not for the aircraft but the paddle steamer it failed to nest with.
Ross
Ross_McNeillHow about this in paragraph 2. Best I have unless a nav log turns up.
Interceptions and Tactics Report
AIR 14/3374
Content copyright The National Archives
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillBetween the wars the RAF was struggling to survive. Both the Army and the Royal Navy were making political moves to control the air service to suit their needs.
To a large extent the home RAF was a caretaker force of minimal size but in the Middle and Far East it had found a niche to provide “policing” of the various factions that made up the extremes of the Empire.
Rather than numerous garrisons of the Army the RAF could cover great distances and bring control from the air.
As such it was the area that most between the wars RAF personnel served so you will probably find extensive service from him in this theatre in his records.
Come declaration of war in 1939 the government had already set the annual spend for the armed forces for that year and a few years beyond and the needs of war could not move the treasury to alter that.
What could be done is to give additional funds for the duration of the War Emergency. All reserves, conscripts, volunteers etc that were to be funded as part of this budget needed to be separated and as such were denoted Hostilities Only or Emergency.
This is why his commission is given the (emergency).
Someone promoted to a new rank may not be suitable for the role and it would mean too much paperwork in recording the Establishment Position filled then having to refill it if the incumbent did not make the grade.
The way round this was to make all promotions prob or probationary for a period of 6 months.
The position to be filled was populated but not confirmed.
If the person did mot make the grade the promotion could be cancelled at any time and a new bod appointed without new paperwork.
If the grade was met then six months after probation the appointment would be confirmed and the estabisment was set in stone.
Pay and conditions would start from the time the appointment was announced but seniority would only be backdated to gazette date when probation period over.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe family history more or less matches.
When he entered the RAF it was straight from civilian life.
Boy entrant was for a very specific age and training group but his service number shows that he was not part of this group so was classed as a man.
This means that he was subject to different training and regulations regarding service and promotions.
The amended details I gave for his service number was
340001 to 360000 Sep 1919 Civilians (completed 16.6.25)
So it was active between Sept 1919 and June 1925 and these dates are the absolute limits for his entry.
Roughly number 346439 is a third of the way through the block so you can assume enlistment around 1921/1922.
He rose through the ranks to become the most senior non commissioned rank of Warrant Officer.
Some might say he initially was a “doer” then became the one who said “do not do” to sitting at a desk barking the orders at those who say “do not do”. Only the station commander could tell him what to do, others only suggest if they knew what was good for themselves.
In 1942 something happened where he was recommended for a commission. I would suggest that it was not his choice as he had more responsibility and better living/pay conditions as a Warrant Officer than as a relatively junior Commissioned Officer.
I suspect it was to do with establishment on the units were he was serving.
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?12424-Establishment-Unit
As a commissioned officer his movements and speciality is easier to trace. Six times a year an official list called the Air Force List was published which listed all officers and the branch in which they were serving.
Looking at the March 1943 list he appears in the Admin and Special Duties Branch which usually means non flying/recalled retired/administration eg accountants/stores officers/support staff.
However he is entered in a sub branch category of Special Duties (Photography).
Only two pages are used to list all the Officers in the entire RAF in this sub branch serving as of March 1943.
The most senior is a Squadron Leader. As to Flying Officers one has a seniority of Nov 1940, two with 1941 senority and twenty eight of 1942 senority. He is the only Flying Officer in this group with Dec 1942 senority.
So this fits with a previous service history of photgraphic experience.
As to what he was doing Photographic Interpretation/I.C. Photographic Equipment Section or analysing bombing photos for bomber command units you will need to get this from his RAF service record.
This is available for a small fee from the RAF at Cranwell.
Given the length of service it should be interesting reading.
No good looking at Forces War Records they do not have the info on any WW2 RAF service record despite the impression given.
Using the Online London Gazette
Retirement.
Flying Officer H. A. ANDREWS (50486) retaining
the rank of Flight Lieutenant. 26th Nov. .1945.
So he remained officially at Flying Officer but was recognised as a Flight Lieutenant in terms of pay and authority for the actual duties he was carrying out.
After VJ day his service was no longer required and he was allowed to retire from his War Emergency Commission.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillSorry brain fade.
Other way round for service numbers.
340001 to 360000 Sep 1919 Civilians (completed 16.6.25)
So no prior army service
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillNope,
Typical commission of senior NCO. W/O were treated in the same manner as Medical Officers and commissioned straight into Flying Officer rank bypassing Pilot Officer.
This recognised their service (or medical) experience prior to commission.
However all promotions were for a probationary period of approx 6 months before seniority in rank was confirmed.
To meet the constraints placed on RAF manning by parliament yearly budgets and treasury audits 99% of wartime commissions were for duration of current war emergency only (1939 to 1945/6).
That way when peace was declared the additional manpower could be demobbed and the staffing levels return to peacetime establishment.
The second number is his OR service number as ACH to W/O. On commission he received a new service number and this is the first one.
His OR service number is from the block 49801 to 50800 and related to entry Nov-Dec 1916 into the RFC for civilians. So he will also appear in the foundation lists for the RAF in April 1918 and have an Army service record upto this date.
So the start of his commissioned career as Flying Officer rather than any temporary promotion/duty.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillBeen reading too much of the Kittyhawk thread.
No pilot only fitter opening throttle on ground test.
No injuries
Canopy will close with gravity when sitting in P/O Prune perfect three pointer (both mains and prop boss)
Ross
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