Ross_McNeillAccident in training – almost 50% of RAF Casualties were non operational.
The fatal incident was subject to a Court of Inquiry. The findings of the court on probable cause and other factors are noted on the F1180.
Form 1180 – Copyright RAF Museum
Accident on 5th Dec 1940
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/F1180/1940/December_1940/5_12_1940/01501700.JPG
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/F1180/1940/December_1940/5_12_1940/01501701.JPG
Accident on 7th April 1941
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/F1180/1941/April_1941/7_4_1941/02400667.JPG
http://www.rafaircraftaccidents.com/F1180/1941/April_1941/7_4_1941/02400668.JPG
The AM Form 78 resides at RAF Museum Hendon – this is the Aircraft Movement Card and lists all units and dates that the airframe was issued to during its life.
You can apply to MoD for a copy of the service record of any RAF personnel that has been deceased for over 25 years. This will give all posting, trade test. promotions, reclassifications etc.
With details of where the aircraft was issued you can then view the unit Operations Record Book at The National Archives, Kew. This is the war diary for the unit and usually records operational flights giving pilot, duration and task.
Ross
Ross_McNeillNo you are not wrong, that is the caption by the Exeter Team and there were not many fuselage of only 14 feet long.
However I have never claimed that this image was a ‘WW2 plane’ nor that it was the fuselage of a ‘WW2 plane’.
I have said that a collision between two aircraft occurred near to the area where the object has been found – I gave a date for that collision that was not in the period WW2 – I stated that if the remains were as reported of small area and aircraft then it was possible that they were the munched tail feathers.
Please do not try to put your spin on what I have posted to meet your need to have a pop at BBC/Exeter Team/CSM.
Ross
Ross_McNeillAt the risk of actually replying to questions posed without reverting to flights of junior fiction writing to fill my posts with constant drivel which seem to be the response of some on this thread.
My comment on the BBC loss of caption related to the fact that their posted side imaging graphics did not contain the caption posted with them elsewhere by the Exeter team.
This means that the only image actually captioned “A sonar image of an unknown 14-foot object, possibly the fuselage of a small aircraft.” by the Exeter team was not included in the BBC images but the one captioned “A sonar scan of a sunken boat. Picture: Neill Wood” was, albeit as “The Camborne School of Mines found evidence of large objects at the bottom of Cornwall’s largest natural lake”.
The original Neill Wood caption would have confirmed the opinions of those here who viewed the second image via the BBC link and pronounced it as kayak/longship etc…
But never let that get in the way of a tirade of what the forum calls banter.
Ross
Ross_McNeillKilled when his Hurricane crashed into the sea while tasked with an oxygen climb to 25,000 ft.
Form 1180 has it as N2124.
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe BBC report has lost the captions associated with the images. Try the following link
The “Nessie triangular fin” image is the one captioned aircraft
Watch out for the annoying full page pop up ads – top right to close them down.
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe Firefly collision was PP653/DK542 – 11th Oct 1954 but unlikely as main wrecks were on football pitch and marshy ground while trying to land on the football pitch.
Another example of a recorded crash on land that has moved to water because “a Guy in the Pub told my mate…. “
Edit – If it is a small patch of debris as described in one report then possibly the munched tail feathers of DK542 but not the whole aircraft.
Ross
Ross_McNeillHi Benoit,
Drop me a pm with details of postal address
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Tony – I think Derby disposed of one of their copies
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Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillA control-column firing-button from a Boulton-Paul Defiant…
…with only turret-guns?
that when in the stowed position facing forward could be fired by the pilot.
Ross
Ross_McNeillAlthough emissions from instruments are within safe limits they still attract attention in the postal system.
Last year I had an 8 day clock passed by US postal system and carried over by air mail.
It was stopped at Coventry hub by Parcel Force and would not be sent by UK system. I was asked to collect and sign for. Although a minor niggle I was glad that I could still receive the instrument.
I drove up to Coventry with the top half of a Halifax Engineers panel in the back of the estate aiming to drop this off on the way back.
On arrival at Coventry I was directed to drive through the main gate and park up but as I approached the second barrier the alarms sounded.
The part panel had set off the sensor.
Speaking to the bods after I reversed out of site they said that all artic loads in and out pass through the gate sensor and will be stopped if the alarms are set off.
So sensitive enough to detect a group of 8 instruments at approx. 10 metre and 20 mph.
I would expect the port border controls to use the same kit.
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe visual Link (with upper Biplane Wing attached) was very short lived and when night flying became an established norm of operational training most were returned to D1 standard as this was where they were most needed.
Interestingly the locked controls method of first solo continued as the main teaching method of actual flight on the primary glider.
For info this is the list of synthetic training devices in both current RAF use (Jan 1944) and historically from 1941 split into aircrew groups
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Ross
Ross_McNeillSounds like a confusion of several different approaches.
Link Trainers of both the wartime and post war were designed for blind flying and radio range training. The hood (lift up for the early ANT/D1 and slide forward for the late ANT/D2) prevented vision out of the trainer causing reliance on the instrument displays.
To put a Link in the Torpedo Trainer would mean removal of the hood, returning visual horizon methods of reference. As the Link could not advance towards the painted scenery then no part of the approach to target could be simulated unless the target departed from the scenery and advanced towards the link, growing in size to give the picture from 50′ above sea level and 1000 yards range which was the typical torpedo release point.
The Link Crew Trainer was designed to use external reference but this was star positions simulated by point lights of various brightness on a lattice frame work in a darkened bowl.
Projection methods were normally Navigation, astro, gunnery (10ft vertical bowl screen) and bombing simulation (AML Type) training but in conjunction to platforms and turrets rather than with Link ANT/D1 types.
Crew Procedure Trainers also used periodic projection via epidiascope of flak bursts, position pinpoints, targets etc for logging during the simulation but the crew sat in cubicles rather than the Link.
An expanded version of the Crew Procedure Trainer was used by Coastal Command but this included the Tactical Floor as a large scale terrain/seascape model rather than projection targets.
A variety of stationary table/box simulators were used for DF Loop C100, DR Navigation Training, Harwell Box (W/T), Clift Navigation Trainer etc.
Recognition trainers were where the stationary target model was presented at various angles and ranges from a seated position. The model was presented in a box of painted scenery mounted above the seated trainee and range was simulated by moving a mirror away from the display/recognition position (Hunt Trainer).
Moving target devices were of two main types, the panoramic trainer shown before and Hawarden type where interception methods were simulated against painted backdrops.
The other main use of Link as opposed to instrument/navigation training was Fisher/Edmondes add on devices to project a light from the front face of the Link, This was in response to a fixed size target moving on a circular track around the Link. The simulation was for deflection shooting where the facing of the link would give a projected light position ahead of the target which could be equated to the amount of lead/deflection that the trainee was giving the target. An instructor would visually assess the distance of light spot ahead of target model and say if a hit would have occurred.
All part of the ad hoc devices that were produced almost on a station by station basis using what device they had been issued with and what was to hand (the Hawarden Trainer used two Meccano 6 volt motors and a brass curtain rail).
Ross
Ross_McNeillNo special building it’s a standard hangar.
To be specific a Bellman from the portal lattice
Ross
Ross_McNeillSorry the period photos are from “Illustrated Catalogue of Synthetic Training Devices” by Directorate of Operational Training 1942.
No locations are given for any of the devices but I suggest that they would be normally found on B&GS and OTUs using maintenance airframes found locally.
Ross
Ross_McNeillOk this is the Panorama Trainer. The Blenheim was on castors and could be replaced by any of the instructional turret rigs.
Note the ship models on the floor.
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The enemy aircraft ran on an overhead oval to give a changing aspect and range.
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As far as I remember the FAA version used a curved surface to clean up the visual of the interface between floor and wall and this was the painted plaster bowl shape. The horizon was a line painted on the cylindrical wall and there are overhead rails above which I assumed were for lighting rigs but they are similar to the oval target track of the panorama trainer.
Found a link to some recent photos of the Torpedo Trainer remains at Crail
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cycleologist/sets/72157623382190310/
Ross
Ross_McNeillUsed Crail for Scottish Championship Rallies.
The Torpedo Trainer was plaster bowl painted scenery. Still present in the late 80s.
The equivalemt RAF device was the Panorama Trainer which had painted canvas backdrop and stationary Blenheim in the centre. Used for turret training.
Got a period photo of the Panorama Trainer – will dig it out and post later.
Ross
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