Ross_McNeillThe rigging notes for the Walrus are in The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3307399
also vapour separation tests
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4015544
As for the Bison pickings are a bit leaner
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%22avro+bison%22
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillPossible death 2002 Glamorgan
A copy of death cert will confirm.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThere is quite a bit of groundwork you can do first to give more info.
His service number is of a block issued at RAF Penarth
You can also take a punt on that he was typically 19 to 24 years old on entry.
A quick search on FreeBMD for birth of R Yorath between 1919 and 1925 gives a few returns. One is for Richard L Yorath registered in Cardiff district. This would agree with RAF Penarth entry circa 1941.
Now check for Richard L Yorath in AIR 78 on free download from The National Archives
AIR78/177 shows index card for Richard Lawrence Yorath service number 1404497. The stamp F is Class F reserve.
So you could have easily done this (even just a trawl through AIR 78 as the name was relatively rare) to provide more info and start your research with his birth cert. Now look to see when and if he is dead before you apply to MoD for a copy of his service record (returned info varies if he has been deceased for over 25 years).
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillWH904
Your best solution is to dictate how others will spend their money and resources. How about coming up with a funded and organised solution that does not depend on the charity of others?
Ross
Ross_McNeillMight be prudent to do a bit of validity checking on the information posted.
His index card in AIR 78 shows F in a circle which means Class F reserve. This usually means prewar service and would tie in with age.
Service number was part of the first batch Sept 39 to April 41 issued at Padgate. Estimating entry at Winter 40/Spring 41 from the position of the number in the block.
From June/July 1940 all aircrew were promoted to a minimum rank of Sgt so he would only be LAC if he either did not complete aircrew training or reverted to AC2/AC1/LAC rank on remuster after aircrew service.
At 30 years old on entry to service at Padgate he would be very close to upper age for AG training at that time and with the influx of volunteer younger men. However with previous service/training this could be possible.
You should also validate the information on DFM award.
Ross
Ross_McNeillYeah,
Action the failings – remove all the museum related artefacts and turn the released space into mega toilets and food halls – that way the commented failings will be addressed.
or is there another reason why museums/collections exist?
Ross
Ross_McNeillMark,
The interpretation of the link is incorrect in that it only describes the application to vessels.
The Protection of Military Remain Act is the device that the Sovereign uses to place specific rights onto Vessels and Aircraft in International and UK Waters (note no application to other Sovereign Territorial Waters).
“An Act to secure the protection from unauthorised interference of the remains of military aircraft and vessels that have crashed, sunk or been stranded and of associated human remains; and for connected purposes. [8th July 1986]”
Two specific deeds are proscribed – Designation by statutory instrument (Controlled Place) and Protected by the PMRA Act (Protected Place).
Controlled Place
“(2) Subject to the following provisions of this section, the Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument-
(a) designate as a vessel to which this Act applies any vessel which appears to him to have sunk or been stranded (whether before or after the passing of this Act) while in military service ;
(b) designate as a controlled site any area (whether in the United Kingdom, in United Kingdom waters or in international waters) which appears to him to contain a
place comprising the remains of, or of a substantial part of, an aircraft to which this Act applies or a vessel which has so sunk or been stranded ;
and the power of the Secretary of State to designate a vessel as a vessel to which this Act applies shall be exercisable irrespective of whether the situation of the remains of the vessel is known.”
and for Protected Place:
“(6) For the purposes of this Act a place (whether in the United, Kingdom, in United Kingdom waters or in international waters) is a protected place if
(a) it comprises the remains of, or of a substantial part of, an aircraft, or vessel to which this Act applies ;
and
(b) it is on or in the sea bed or is the place, or in the immediate vicinity of the place, where the remains were left by the crash, sinking or stranding of that aircraft or vessel ;”
This is why only a limited number of vessels have designated as Controlled and why all UK military aircraft in international waters are automatically covered as Protected.
As to burial of Human Remains from Military Wreck – this is a complex legal debate which I will not go into but usually distils down to “enclosed space” and the historic use of the sea for commitment of remains as a legal/consecrated/recognised burial ground.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThe Halifax is below the high tide line and cannot be considered under the same physical and legal constraints as wreck above the high tide line.
The term “War Grave” has no legal definition in Maritime Law only a common understanding.
The Halifax is not in “foreign waters” it is in Norwegian Territorial Waters and as such is administered under Nordic/Norwegian Law.
For maritime purposes all RAF aircraft crashed into the sea in either territorial or international waters are not considered as “abandoned”.
This is a specific term in marine law and denotes that the original owner has not relinquished their legal right to the artefact/vessel.
So the current owner is the British State and these rights are administered by the Ministry of Defence.
The artefact/vessel is located within Norwegian Territorial Waters so it is protected by Norwegian Maritime Law as a wreck that is not abandoned.
In respect to Aircraft/Historic artefacts – Norwegian Maritime Law is similar to many other national laws (UK/US/German etc) and generally follows the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the rights of the sovereign owner.
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf
this means that Norway will administer the British State rights to the wreck on their behalf and will decline any third party action unless it has express instruction by the British State to action.
All sorts of other restrictions and penalties are placed by British Law on British Citizens or British Owned Vessels partaking in unauthorised work in either International Waters or within Territorial Waters other that UK.
Ross
Ross_McNeillHi Laurence,
Looks favourite – the accident report gives 22nd May 1944, location Persian Gulf, pilot Bruce L Miller.
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/AARmonthly/May1944O.htm
You can order a copy of the report from this web site.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillThere seem to be a few misconceptions of what depths recreational divers can reach being discussed in the above posts.
The general accepted recreational diving limit on air for Sports Divers is approx 40m. Beyond a partial pressure of around 1.4 atmosphere the air becomes toxic.
Factors such as effort and cold which increase the air consumed act to raise the toxic limit towards the surface.
A smaller branch of recreational diving is Technical Diving where gas mixtures are used to replace air components extending the depth that can be reached but this is usually no deeper than 100 to 150 metre.
It needs an extensive amount of specialised kit, access to gas production/mixing plants and training/certification.
The deeper you go the longer you must take to surface to negate another factor of breathing gas at depth.
The real profile for a trimix dive to 60 metre (1/3rd the depth of the wreck) is
Descent to 60m – 4 mins
Bottom time at 60m – 25 mins
Ascent with staged decompression stops between 39m and 3m on Nitrox and Oxygen – 50 mins
So you are looking at a dive in those water temps of approx. 90 mins duration and carrying volume of the various gases necessary for that duration plus safety margin and bale out alternatives for equipment failure.
The video shows ROV telemetry HUD stamp and is most likely source for discovery/inspection of this wreck.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillGraham,
JN772 is off Dungeness, or to be more exact :-
“HSL178 sighted an aircraft crashing into sea, position 110 degrees Dungeness 2 miles and recovered pilot uninjured. 22:10.
AIR29/445″
In essence everything that went into the Channel is still there in some form or other.
In the same way that all other crashes on land, even those recovered at the time, have left fragments on the surface they struck even if it is just paint flakes.
What pieces that are left on land and underwater is what was not recovered at the time/later and are being reduced to elements by chemical corrosion/reaction.
For the more intact underwater and shoreline wreck to survive to present day requires a multitude of conditions to occur together and these usually only occur in a few localised areas off the UK coast.
The better question is what could still survive in x and y areas.
As an example look at the preservation state of fabric label on the Snorkel Parka from the Liberator, compared to the metal, in this special area of the Channel.
Regards
Ross
Ross_McNeillWith words ..and the picture credits from the Sept 2013 Popular Science article by Andy Isaacson on the Palau wreck.
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2013-08/robotic-search-wwii-airmen
Ross
Ross_McNeillWhat it says on the tin.
If you wanted to move an aircraft by air in wartime before you took off you applied to the Movement Liaison Section for a Movement Serial Indicator and to tell them your route with approximate timings. The MLS gave you next available serial from a letter/number sequence and recorded your details on a list which was sent to all filter rooms.
When the aircraft was picked up on RDF/Radar/Observer Corps and reported as unknown to filter room the duty Movement Liaison Officer looked up his list for who was authorised to be there and said either “friendly MSI – disregard” or “hostile – engage”.
Ross
Ross_McNeillMovement Serial Indicator issued by the Movement Liaison Section.
Used to classify RDF plots.
Ross
Ross_McNeillHi Mike,
Looks to be all associated with fuel carbs and injection.
Take a day out in London with your camera and photo all the pages for free at The National Archives, Kew
There may be a few other manuals of interest
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1199630
Regards
Ross
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