Well I would first reply to them that as there are no pureblood Maori left that if I must leave they must therefore come too.

Second I would point out that my ancestors arrived here after them but that their ancestors also arrived to this country from polynesia. The fact that both our ancestors arrived here surely means that the current people of New Zealand… both them and I… that were born here should have as much claim to being a native if not more claim than they did.

So, let me get this straight: since everyone basically arrived at one time or another, without the importance of precedence, then neither have claims stronger than any other, right? But you see, that’s just the point. I never claimed exclusive Jewish rights in Palestine, I claim a right based on a historically proven fact that Jews existed as a nation in Palestine, that they are in fact indigenous as far as anyone can tell, that they were expelled by force, but that they have also maintained both a constant presence in the land as well as a constant wish to return, which with time became embodied within Judaism as a religion. Yet at the same time I do not deny a similiar Palestinian right, just like Jews the Palestinians are also descendants of various waves of immigration to this land, in recent as well as ancient times. The very name Palestine, the name the Roman gave this land when they expelled the Jews and set to erase any trace of Jewish independence, is from the Philistines, which were Greek seafolk which settled on the Mediterranean coast.

If the Jews were not in palestine then I would oppose them going there to kick out another people just because some book states that some of their ancestors came from there.

Jewish nationhood in Palestine is a historical fact, you don’t have to be religious to understand this. Even if you ignore all the overwhelming archeological evidence, you can simply take a trip down to Rome’s Titus Arch and see the story of the plundering of the Kingdom of Judea on the walls or read the works of Flavius Josephus which detail Jewish life and revolts against Roman rule. (Available on Amazon 😀 )

The fact that you are there means there is no point in trying to get rid of you, but by expanding your settlements and killing palestinians you seem also to be trying to get rid of them.

:rolleyes: There is a war here, between two sides you know, and it’s bad enough without going over the edge in what are accusations with simply no basis in reality. It quite amazing to see that at a time that the Israeli government is trying to push forward a plan to evacuate both Israeli troops and Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip, you’re actually accusing us of trying to get rid of them!

I am sure you will }>
(damn we need a devil smiley again)

Well, you know, some of have have to use facts, not all of us are content with basing our arguments on dogs, rats and other forms of wildlife.

No offence meant but there was probably also a continued presence of dogs and rats… should they fight to claim ownership? There are probably plenty of Jehovas witnesses, christians, and many other relisions there too… shold they all try to take over the place so they can have a safe place in the world from oppression?

So what would you have us do? Submit to the fate bestowed upon us by our dear and considerate hosts? You mention Christians, yet how many Christian nations are there? How many Muslim countries? It’s all too easy to sit on the sidelines and pass judgement. You think we did something unreasonable, creating our own safe place, something that has not been done before? You cannot be serious. Why did your forefathers immegrate to New Zealand, Garry? For economic reasons, I guess. Yet you would claim to be more justified that me?

You have an ideological claim to a patch of dirt. How many have died for that? Is you religion worth all of that death and suffering? Religions seem to prosper when there is a lot of death and disaster around… they never bring the peace and understanding they preach.

Spare me the preaching, for 19 centuries in exile we were plainly not good enough for Europe or anyone else, we certainly were not “your” people, hard as we tried. Not as observant Jews, not as secular, not as capitalists, socialist, anarchists, nationalist, nor as communists. Within living memory we were slaughtered by the millions. You may have forgotten history, I have not. My grandfather was secular, he fought with the Red Army against the Nazis. Much good either did him when the Poles nationalized his belongings and showed him the door.

It is funny that I hear some suggest the problem is Yasser Arafat. The simple truth is that the Palestinian people trust him… if he were removed even if you got someone you could deal with what is the point?

I can best explain it as if you have a workers union with powerful negotiator on the union side that the workers chose… if the company decides that they can’t make the cuts and changes they want to make with that negotiator if they have him replaced by someone that will make the changes they want then they are wasting their time as the workers will see he is a company man and reject the deal. A rejected deal means strikes and go slows. In context if the Israelis remove Yasser then any deal his replacement signs will not be accepted if the palestinians don’t like it. You can bleat all you like about how they are violating the new deal but the result will be continued bloodshed.

There was a time the above thought was prevalent, I believed it myself. That time is long gone. Whatever their methods, even tough negotiators eventually reach an agreement, because even they realise that is the ultimate interest of both employers and employees, and even they realise that they are useless if their word means nothing. This is not Yasser Arafat. This is not a man striving for a negotiated agreement, but a man using every means at his disposal, especially violence, to force a completely unacceptable solution upon Israel. Agreements he signs are not worth the paper they are written on. What he does not manage to achieve through negotiations because he refuses to compromise, he attempts to achieve through violence. When power over the Palestinians was handed to him, instead of preparing his people for the compromises peace would necessitate, instead of building the institutions necessary for effective government, he turned Palestinian regions into cleptocracies, terrorist safe heavens, continueing to delude his people with promises of eventual victory while the content of his media and education systems spewed the most vile and inciteful hatred toward everything Israeli and Jewish. He has repeatedly failed them in the past, in Jordan and in Lebanon, and he continues to fail them today. He is their tragedy, and they will be the first to benefit from his demise.

If Israel deserves a state… I am not up with your religion… did you ever actually have a Jewish state before or was it just the case that a lot of Jews lived in that area? …then surely Palestine needs to exist too, and with full autonomy… ie airports, ports, etc etc.

Again, Jewish nationhood in Palestine is a historical fact. But aside from that, I’ve already said this countless times before : The reason Palestinians don’t have an independent state is not because of an inherent Israeli refusal to recognize a Palestinian right to self determination. (There are quite a few of us here, has any one of us ever denied the Palestinians their right to a state?) It is, hard as you may try to ignore this, because peace requires both trust and concesions from both sides. Neither exist because the Palestinian leadership totally refuses to compromise on issues which are of fundamental important to the Israeli populace. Coupled with their total disregard for signed commitments and repeated use of violence for political ends, the Israeli electorate simply does not see what it has to gain from making concessions. Since 1993 various Israeli prime ministers such as Rabin, Peres and Barak, took huge risks in order to move the peace process forward, not the least of which was arming the Palestinian Authority with the weapons that it todays targets us with. In return all the Palestinians could say was “no.” Arafat would not compromise an inch on territory, on the Holy Places and on the refugees, whose presumptive rights were fundamentally incompatible both with the two-state solution and with the survival Israel.

Now come on, Steve. You know just as well that as soon as Israel start living up to it’s ‘democratic’ banner, they can remove the Star of David from their flag and turn it into a smiley icon or something like that. Nevertheless, in an ideal world i would love to see that happen: the Palestinians giving up their demands for an independent state, and instead demand citizenship of the country that is currently governing their territories… if only…

Last month another Arab was elected to sit on the Israeli Supreme Court while only last night a predominantly Arab football club won the national cup and will represent Israel in international tournaments. Our democracy may not be perfect, but neither has yours always been. I want you to say it Arthur, I want to hear it : tell me Jews will be better off living in an Arab country, because that’s what you wish for them. Like Egypt, for instance, which displayed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a Jewish holy book in a UNESCO funded library. I want to see the hyporicy, the detachment from reality which only your European moralistic presumptions can provide. Just say it.

And seahawk, complain as you will about how impolite I am, you still haven’t countered my arguements. In fact, you persist in proving me right. Is it not true that by your criteria not only do Jews not deserve Palestine, but they don’t actually deserve any land at all? Or do you have some piece of land hidden away for us? Is this not a de facto denial of the Jewish right of self determination?

I cannot find all of the bad things you accused seahawk of suggesting in the passage you quoted. Perhaps you’re looking for them harder than I am?

All I did was follow Seahawk’s remarks to their logical conclusion. If Jews don’t deserve a state in Palestine, the same can be argued for every piece of land on this planet. Again, if my conclusions were wrong, feel free to point out where.

My understanding is that there is a distinction between Judaism and Israel.

If the state of Israel were an exclusive nation in which all of the Jewish faith was gathered, to the exclusion of all others, then your line of reasoning would have more strength.

Of course Judaism and Israel are completely different things. I don’t think I suggested otherwise, and I certainly did not intend to say so. I don’t see what this has to do with the issue at hand, though. Israel is the Jewish national home, a refuge for Jews worldwide should they need it, but there is no requirement for anyone to affiliate himself with it if he doesn’t wish so.

However, not all those who are of the Jewish faith choose to live in Israel, and not all those who live in Israel are of the Jewish faith.

OK, so what? Nearly every country in the world boasts one majority community, and nearly all reflect the cultural identity of that community in one way or another. The United States officially celebrates only Christian holidays and many European countries openly identify as either Catholic or Protestant. How many countries boast crosses on their flags?

Were the tribes of Israel the only peoples living in present-day Israel in biblical times? In a rare show of solidarity, both the Bible and the science of archaeology tell us otherwise.

Now, this in no way reduces the right of Israel to exist free from harm and molestation, but it does call into question the notion of exclusivity that Zionism holds so dear.

You refer to Palestine as “their (the Jews) ancestral homeland”. Please tell us where the Palestinians ancestors came from.

Your basic mistake is the belief that Zionism has a “notion of exclusivity”. Neither I, nor the majority of Israelis, object to the formation of a Palestinian state. At no point did I suggest Palestinians have no right to this place. You should really read my posts better. At no point doing my long years in this place have ever suggested anything to deny Palestinians their right to an indepedent state within the borders of mandatory Palestine nor the equality of Arab-Israelis within Israel.

Yet in your own reasoning you use precisely four nationalities which do have nation states of their own: Turkey, Italy, Greece and more than 20 Arab countries. This goes beyond affiliation to a specific piece of land, because the nationalities you mentioned are not lacking in that regard. What in effect you are saying is that Jews have no right of self determination, denying them the rights under which numerous nation states on this planet have come into being, and condeming them to perpetual depedence on the fleeting will of the likes of Europe and the Muslim World. We both know our history, you’ll forgive me if I decline.

Good one, Garry, the internal contradictions within are quite staggering.
Indeed, what “If the Maori decide that they have had enough of us whities and ask that we leave and generally make our lives hell till we do” ? Forget about the “where”, are you indeed going to leave? I mean, I could talk at length about Palestine as the brithplace of the Jewish people, about their forceful expulsion from it, the continual presence of Jews in Palestine through the ages, the Jewish majority at various point in history, as well as the long attempts at compromise between the two sides. But really, why should I go to such lengths? So, Garry, when are you leaving New Zealand and returning it to its original owners? With all due espect, Jews have a much greater claim to Palestine that a “whitie” like you has to New Zealand, dont you think?

The latest information indicates that only two of these four aircraft will be equipped for the CAEW role, while the other two will be used for ‘intelligence’.

All of this is indeed ancient news. The “latest information” in the quote above, has already been published last summer, along with a picture of the first aircraft to undergo the conversion.

Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin as an avatar, Holocaust denial in the text and an abnoxisouly misleading signature. Oh, I hope it’s not deleted, it’s an outright classic.

Lovely pics, could we trouble you for some further location info? The first one, for instance, where was it taken? Seems a rather warmer climate than I would expect of Germany.