PrimateAssuming that the minke population (e.g. in the Atlantic) is sufficiently large and sustainable and that the whaling methods currently in use are effective and humane (at least as good as they can practically get today), I believe some of this debate boils down to cultural issues.
I’m very fond of animals and nature in general and hold sustainable management as a very important matter. Some might even see me as a “bleeding heart tree-hugger.” 😉
I don’t however think it’s wise to let the “disneyfication” get out of hand, so to speak. While I generally respect e.g. vegetarians for their lifestyle choices, I also think of us human carnivores as part of the food chain – with a responsibility attached to our unique cognitive abilities.
Hunt / kill and eat responsibly.
PrimateWell, don’t ask the Japanese whether the Minke are at sustainable levels since they have been researching for years whilst claiming that very thing since before the moratorium; the only problem from that angle is that they are rather unreliable where their interests are concerned, hence the repeated claim that there are sustainable levels.
I don’t know much about Japan in this case. I should clarify that I’m trying to see this from a European perspective, focusing on whaling in the Atlantic.
Its not ‘disneyfication’ – I can’t think of a cuddly, lovable whale-like personification other than one on Sponge Bob (a whiny teenager-like female who, if I recall rightly, is not very lovable). Maybe you can think of something better?
I was thinking more along the lines of “disneyfication” of animals in general. This might be OT, but I’m not sure it’s wise to culturally condition children that way. At least it’s important to address the facts of nature (and the processed ham on the sandwich), but then again it might not be a big deal for all I know. I wonder if some developmental traits in Western societies such as urbanization and less (?) direct involvement with primary industries can contribute to alienate parts of the population from methods used to kill animals for food. Seeing as how many people enjoy eating animals, I also wonder if this logically shouldn’t set the stage for some types of internal conflicts (psychologically speaking). Assigning different values to different species also comes to mind.
‘Disneyfication’ does not enter into the mind when seeing images of a whale ‘cow’ (female, mother) and its ‘calf’ being hauled aboard a whaling ship; the calf stayed with its mother after she was fatally injured or killed and so was killed by the whalers for…research purposes.
I’m not familiar with whaling regulations. I don’t think the process of killing animals per se is any more nice than you do. I like fishing and will probably take up gamebird hunting some day, owing mainly to the fact that I enjoy the general nature / hunting experience and getting food straight from the wild. The act of killing in itself does not appeal to me, but I see it as a (brutal) part of life.
Cows, sheep, pigs, etc, are all bred to be eaten – it is a fact of life; whales are wild creatures
I think hunting wild animals for food is more natural in itself than taking whatever comes out of the abattoirs. Speaking of farm animals – what about their quality of life? Stress levels in the moments before they’re slaughtered? Medication? Meat quality?
Shooting an unknowing elk which has lived a good and healthy life in the wild doesn’t seem that bad to me compared to the abattoir.
we have no way of knowing if they are on the verge of extinction if we (or rather the Japanese) don’t track them but kill them for research. If, next year, none are found due to over research this year… what do we do?
You don’t think the various populations are being monitored?
Again, I know little about the Japanese activities. Logic tells me they don’t intend to do away with the very foundation of whaling (or hunting or fishing) in general: Always making sure to maintain a strong and sustainable population of whatever species you’re after. I trust that e.g. Norwegian authorities know their stuff regarding minke whales in the Atlantic.
Look, I’m quite fond of whales and animals in general. General animal welfare and conservation of wild species means a lot to me. I also believe in the responsible and sustainable harvesting of what nature has to offer. I don’t have a complete oversight, but I’m more worried about some other species (e.g. Amur Leopard, Mountain Gorilla) than the minke whale at the moment. Perhaps the resources being used to try and keep some minke whales from getting killed could benefit more serious conservation efforts elsewhere. I just fail to see the logic here.
We went out on a Pilot Whale watching trip when we were in Tenerife a few years ago. As you say, a memorable experience.
I also tasted some smoked whale meat in Bergen. Not as nice as the roast reindeer.
I’ve had the pleasure of watching whales when flying – very memorable. I’d even like to try freediving among them.
Tip: If you ever get the chance, consider trying some grilled and properly marinated minke meat with a fitting sauce.
PrimatePlease, come right out and tell us that you don’t have a clue about the subject – like the rest of us.
True. And here we are, speculating our b*tts off. Fits well with parts of the general culture in this forum, wouldn’t you agree? 🙂
Good idea – but there are billions of mouths to feed: where are you going to get all those wild animals from? In this day and age taking individual animals from the wild feeds a minuscule few comparatively, so there has to be farming, cultivating animals for food. But research – not from the Japanese – shows that whales and dolphins are aware of what is happening, they can communicate and feel terror and stress when being hunted, the survivors carry the trauma for a long time afterwards.
Farming is of course necessary. I just think it’s a bit weird to see some people be strongly opposed to hunting, but not the regular food industry. I wonder if it can be a symptom of losing touch with nature somehow.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens if whales start developing opposing thumbs.
You would say that, but then you are not an elk. Tell us how much fun it is when they have the opportunity to shoot back…
The current order of nature is what it is. My view on hunting in general should be known by now.
It is estimated that there are little over 100,000 Minke whales left – apparently a good number, when compared to other whales, but we don’t know if they have been able to keep up their numbers when you extract those killed by whalers, etc.
governments might have an interest in not feeding their people whale meat containing very high levels of mercury… But no.
Or yes. Given specific advice, i.e. for pregnant women. IIRC, I’ve eaten no more than 5-8 meals of minke meat over the last 11 years. Limits due to contamination apply to a range of other products. But yes, mercury pollution seems to be a serious issue.
what is the difference between whalers and men stalking around forests shooting gorillas or leopards for the meat and fur? Clue: it is easier to deploy and army to watch over gorillas and ignore whales…
Or the species in question have different conservation statuses.
Logic says we need to really know how many there are and just how sustainable – to life!
Yes.
A fitting sauce? Maybe something made from effluent and containing mercury…?
I was thinking of a brown sauce / cream sauce mix or something similar. Can be just excellent with good meat, potatoes and vegetables. Mostly ecological, of course. 🙂
Enjoy the Easter! I’ll try to do my bit. :very_drunk:
PrimateHow true. So let’s just hold that thought and let the authorities publish the report and leave the amateur sleuthing and speculation to others or none. I am sure that’s what the orphans you referred to would wish!!
Second that.
PrimateCan sometimes be hard to tell whether they truly believe it, or if they’re “just” getting off by trolling.
PrimateWhich one, speculating ?
Cut that to a minimum and the forum activity (especially in the modern mil section) would probably go way down. Could raise the quality of the forum IMO, but I guess it is what it is.
Conspiracy-theory it is then! :rolleyes:
Raise you:
PrimateCH-54 with 152mm gun 😉
Should work just nicely. Ground targets? Use acceleration to slant the gun, fly very low or just drop the tank to the ground and sort it out from there. :eagerness:
PrimateNice, thanks for the heads-up. Excellent footage (as usual) IMO.
PrimateHey primate.
How effective would you deem those EW pods being used on the Su-30SM down in Syria these days?They(VVS) seems to fly with them nonstop.
They must make a difference, might be able to close in range considerable.. or not?
No idea.
Primatepretty much nobody uses jamming in exercise.
I’ve been jammed into oblivion at least once during an EW exercise.
I honestly have trouble telling when people here are trying to be serious and when they are trolling.
Comes with the territory in these forums (and others). People blasting away with c*cksure statements about things which they do not necessarily know all about are a little too common.
PrimateIts probably much better for Iraq to get Training and Arms from Russia then to directly involve in Aerial Bombing , Unlike Syria where their Air Force and Ground Forces are in bad shape , Iraq still has a decent Airforce and decent Army ( if they dont run away ) backed by battle hardened Hizbollah
What Iraq needs is training , weapons/arms and Intelligence support something Russia can offer to iraq and Iraq can take it without Hurting Washington’s huge Pride and Ego. Its better to teach a man how to catch a fish so that he knows how to feed himself then to give him and make him dependent.
I don’t know to what degree it matters, but some people who are more or less familiar with the region (history, society, culture etc.) have expressed concern about how some Iraqi failures in the battlefield may be partially due to local cultural dispositions and leadership issues. If this is something like a deeply rooted fact of life in Iraqi society, it could be relevant to discuss the current effectiveness of allied support in this context (whether it comes from coalition members or Russia).
The coalition forces can keep up their good work of bombing ISIL in Iraq ,as they have been doing now for a year now
The coalition air campaign has been criticised for being ineffective (perhaps especially by people who feel that only Russia is doing the “real” work or whatever), but I’ve seen statements from some Kurdish fighters saying that coalition air support has been effective and necessary to contain and drive back Daesh forces in some areas. Like most people I don’t have the overall picture, though, and it’s often difficult to tell how reliable the information is with all that’s going on and being said.
PrimateI don’t have any oversight of the content in this thread and probably have very little to contribute, but by first glance there seems to be a great deal of focus on numbers, specifications etc. While that is an important part of the whole picture, I would like to add that flying a plane is a pretty fluid and complex thing and has a lot to do with the stick monkey up front.
PrimatePerhaps this famous text holds some relevance here:
PrimateOK, now I think we’re more on the same page.
IIRC, this issue got more attention after AF447 and you may be right to point this out as something which should be improved. The discussion about automation and skill decay is always interesting and quite important.
Not sure I agree on the drone / single pilot concept, though (if I understand you correctly). Workload sharing, mutual support and redundancy come to mind.
PrimateThe everything is what would have to go. If you understand Cleary what those responsibilities are (as you do), you won’t disagree that focusing on flight safety, in flight, would raise flight awareness where it matters the most: anticipate, avoid, resolve.
We have now the possibility to access graduated employee at all ranks in flight. In the 70’s, a fresh pilots would mostly be the most graduated/experimented of its crew. This is where the emphasis on Capitainzing the flight comes from: the.most statically able person to take decisions. Today, this is not true. You can have a flight attendant with a master of history or psychology when the pilot in charge have interrupted his/her cursus to pursue a flight formation. In short, there is a resource to multi-task the flight and share flight responsibilities.A pilot devoid of the erratic burden of handling the passengers (which per def is highly variable) could focus on the new challenge of tomorrow: for example high tempo of flight, less predictive weather (global warming), more complex FCS failures (see the stuntman thread).
The good captain in his white uniform saluting passenger boarding the plane is something of the past. It’s a colorful folklore that sadly have to be phased out.
I’m still not sure we share an understanding of how things are being done today. Some of what you are describing sounds to me like normal everyday CRM. The flight crew flies the plane and the cabin crew (under the cabin supervisor) handles the cabin. A captain who knows his CRM makes sure that the rest of the crew is involved as appropriate, and may welcome their thoughts and initiatives if the situation permits. This is at least how I’ve been taught to behave as a commander.
To me you’re making it sound as if the captain is somehow bogged down in work that draws attention away from more critical tasks. While I think there is some valid concern about pressures which should be kept out of the cockpit (i.e. worrying about the added costs of making a missed approach and so on), I’m not sure about the need to relieve the flight crew of additional work. Even with the task of scanning the instruments, reading maps/plates/documents and monitoring the radio more or less continuously, the cruise segment on longer flights usually leaves a lot of time in my experience from smaller airplanes. I should get an airline job and experience things firsthand before I form an opinion on this anyway. 🙂 Perhaps some of the more experienced chaps in here (@27vet) can shed some light on this?
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