Many thanks J & J. Looks like a beautiful machine (as were all those 20’s and 30’s racers IMO). Two more questions …
– was it blue and red like the model?
– does it still exist in some museum somewhere?
cheers, D
J Alcorn’s study concludes; 19 spitfire sqn’s are credited for 282 fighters (109’s) and 247 bombers total per sqn 27.8, . 30 Hurricane sqn’s are credeted for 222 fighters and 434 bombers ,total per sqn21.9,
Stuart
No disrespect and I don’t want to get into a “this fighter was better than that” argument … that is not the point of my thread which is “if the Spitfire hadn’t existed what then?” But the data you quote are bound to be the case because the Spitfire was (more often than not) vectored against the fighters and the Hurricanes against the bombers. It stands to reason (it’s pure maths) that Spitfires would therefore have higher numbers of fighters shot down and the Hurricanes bombers.
It also follows (James) that IF one accepts the premise that a bomber is easier than a fighter to shoot down the RAF fighters presented with the bombers as targets would relatively speaking ‘have a field day”. So the Hurricanes scored more overall.
Which actually doesn’t prove anything does it? As both of you are saying, the facts of what happened are the facts of what happened.
And it especially doesn’t prove whether one of the protagonists (Spitfire or Hurricane) was crucial in the scheme of things. I contine to contend it was Sir Keith Park who won the BoB not any of his machines.
At least you didn’t ask if the “B” stood for Boeing! 😀
Hey I knew that … think I’m a schmuck … it stands for Big
Thank you JB … apppreciate your help. cheers Don
Interesting … so what you’re saying is that the simple “availability” of an effective, multi-role airframe and versatile engine package (Spitfire primarily, but the logic extending to other utilisations of the Merlin) freed up sufficient capacity to enable supply (by both UK and US) of other aircraft to USSR.
That supports an argument that the Spitfire played a key role. To prove the point, you would have to go on to argue that without that supply USSR would not have overcome Germany. That would be hard to do.
But that proof aside, I’m willing to accede to your point that the Spitfire played a “significant” role. Crucial? Could well be.
If none of this had happened – if Spitfires had not emerged from not-the-UK aero industry, but poorly-powered 1941 Camms or Petters had been delivered from Avro/Yeadon, Morris/CBAF – then USSR would have received nowt from us and less from US. If you accept that WW2 was won and lost on the Eastern Front, then that would have been v.bad.
Interesting post as always Alertken. But you’ve lost me on this point. How did emergence (inverse of non-emergence) of Spitfire lead to USSR receiving (whatever) from UK and US? cheers D
Willam Robinson VC
A few years ago I was astounded to find out that William Leefe Robinson was a distant relative of mine. He was my Grandmother’s cousin, son of a brother of William Robinson, my Great-Grandfather. Apparently my Grandmother had a piece of the Zeppelin in her care (it fell not far from her family home) but I’ve no idea where that might be now.
Here’s an account of the incident taken from “Hindenburg, an illustrated history” by Rick Archbold and Ken Marschall. A wee bit dramatic but interesting reading.
—–
The turning point came on September 2, 1916. From German navy and army bases sixteen airships took to the air, their chief target London. By now all limits on bombing of the British capital had been removed, beyond the proscription on historic buildings and royal palaces. The cream of the two airship corps would bring a fire storm to the enemy capital, or so Peter Strasser believed.
Ernst Lehmann, now in the brand-new LZ98, flew one of the thirteen airships to reach the target. As he aproached the city by way of the River Thames, he could see that London was already under attack: “The entire city lay under a luminous mist dotted everywhere with incessant flickering and flashes of bursting projectiles.” As he moved forward he noted that the enemy searchlights seemed more powerful and the ground guns bigger than on his visit the previous spring. The scene before him had an eerie beauty. “We could see many explosions on the ground, evidently from other ships, but they were hidden from view by the haze, bursting shells and searchlight beams. It was like hanging above a lighted stage in a theatre with the rest of the house darkened,” he later recalled.
The widespread haze would deceive him into thinking he was closer to his goal than he actually was. With artillery shells whizzing nearby Lehmann thought he was already over the London dockyards. He released his bombs, then dodged from cloud to cloud to evade the enemy searchlights. In fact, his explosives fell nowhere near the docks. Satisfied at what he believed to be a job well done, he entered a cloud bank, rose to 13,800 feet and headed for home.
Just before Lehmann found his final cloud cover, he was spotted by Second Lieutenant William Leefe Robinson in his single-engine BE2c biplane, the slow-moving night fighter that would prove to be the most effective weapon so far for combatting zeppelin attacks. In vain, Robinson spent fifteen minutes searching for the vanished zeppelin amidst the clouds. Then, in the glare of exploding shells he caught sight of another airship. This one would not get away.
He reached the giant without raising any answering fire, the airship crew had not detected him, then ran the whole length of the ship pumping one whole drum of incendiary ammunition into the hull. Like a whale oblivious to a school of minnows, the airship swam on. Robinson regained his altitude and attacked again, but again he saw no discernible result. “She might have been the Flying Dutchman for all the signs of life I saw,” he later commented.
For his third and final attack, Robinson positioned himself just behind the ship, below the huge cross formed by the horizontal and vertical stabilizing fins. Then he emptied a whole drum of ammunition into a small area of the hull, which immediately began to glow pink. The glow quickly spread forward until the entire interior was lit – a later pilot would describe a similar scene as resembling a huge Chinese lantern. Then, suddenly, the tail section burst into flames and the airborne whale began a slow death dive. The falling inferno lit up the countryside for sixty miles around.
Ernst Lehmann was leaning over the maps in the chart room of the LZ98 when a call from the bridge told him to look back at London. When Lehmann did so, he saw “a huge ball of fire,” perhaps forty miles behind him: “The flaming mass hung in the sky for more than a minute and we could see parts breaking loose and falling faster than the main body. Poor fellows, they had no chance at all when their ship caught fire.” (As a weight-saving measure, the wartime airships did not carry parachutes.)
The remainder of this account goes on to describe how the British defences, particular night-fighters equiped with incendiary ammunition, went on to inflict severe losses on German airships over the remainder of 1916, including the loss of the L31 commanded by the most famous of the zeppelin captains, Heinrich Mathy (who had opened the bombing campaign against London with a spectacular and remarkably destructive raid a year before on September 8, 1915). This was followed by a period of German technological ascendancy as new airships, capable of operating above the ceiling of the British defences, were constructed and brought into action. This in turn was countered by new British aircraft and this see-saw effect continued on throughout the war.
For his part, William Leefe Robinson was awarded the Victoria Cross and great acclaim.
I’ll add to that, the balance swung on the Merlin … there was no other engine, even as a designer’s idea, that could have replaced it.
Very good point
Are you going to be watching this JB? If you do could you please keep an eye/ear out for a F/O O’Leary, originally from Ottawa and pilot of a 619 Squadron Lanc lost at Peenemunde on the night of 17/18 August 1943. My Uncle was his rear gunner! I’d be interested to hear of any such reference. cheers Don
I’m presuming you mean the Soviet tank? That would be a T34, Comrade Gnomeski 😉
I do .. apologies for the faux pas .. have edited my post above
Malta! Fair enough Damien … I hadn’t thought about Malta at all and will now do so.
As to the JU-87.. whilst I take your point that obviously the loser “also-ran” overall, I’m trying to diffentiate between whether a machine/weapon made a difference, that couldn’t have been replicated by another weapon in the user’s arsenal. In that regard I would argue the JU-87 stood alone as a decisive tactical weapon for the Axis.
I’m also wondering whether the T-34 is a candidate.
It’s easy to forget/overlook logging off. Did it myself all day today. Means nothing.
I was told recently that a huge amount of parts from aircraft are still visible across the road from the airport down a bank, because the people who bought many of the planes for scrap had their smelter there and what they didn’t want they tossed over the bank. I’m talking about parts from Corsairs, Venturas, Kittyhawks, Hudsons, Avengers, etc. apparently still lying in this gully. It is on private land and apparently the owner isn’t interested in people getting them for museums, etc.
Buy the land Dave … then recover and sell the bits ‘n pieces … then sell the land 😉
… the first fighter pilot to be killed in WWII …
Really?
I wonder how on Earth someone could mistake a Hurricane for an ME109
Try watching the movie most admired by this forum. BoB used Buchons as Hurricane lookalikes.
And of course there’s the interesting new tale of Douglas Bader …