HP57Calling Colin /Urgent
Colin,
Could you contact me at:
[email]broere01@wanadoo.nl[/email]
about those Halifax parts? On behalf of 57Rescue, with whom I have a very close co-operation relation could we exchange some information about the Halifax parts you have availbale.
Cheers
Cees
HP57Peter,
You mean the AW Whitley that was recovered from a shallow lake or the AVRO Manchester that was recovered or the Vickers Wellington of which a wealth of wreckage was recovered in 1995, or the Halifax that caused quite some consternation when the entire bombload of 1.000 pounders were still in the wreck (not our recovery mind you but the RNethAF, but after preliminary work by our organisation) or the AVRO Lancaster which after five years of intensive work finally gave up its identity as late as june this year together with five missing crewmembers as well as the first Short Stirling to crash on Dutch soil in 1941 and which is to be recovered by a combined effort of our organisation and the Dutch AF during the first week of september, hoping to find the six missing crewmembers still missing and finally the Halifax investigation to follow this saturday in sweltering heat (am I nuts? yes I am)? Not to mention the two Lancasters, a Lib, another Halifax and two Beaufighters that collided that are to follow to name a few??
No, I know nothing about that, because I haven’t read it in FlyPast the past decade 😀 😀 :p :p
But you can have a look for yourself: http://www.nfla.nl (go to Aircraft Recovery Group), where you can see more projects that haven’t happend according to the number one aviation monthly.
Cheers
Fr….. ahum Cees
back to lurking:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
HP57David,
You are correct in that the wingspan of the Hastings is larger compare to the Halifax. This is caused by the intermediate section which is wider. As you say the outer wings and centresection are identical.
But, I’m under the impression that whatever someone says in defense of the YAM’s Halifax, others don’t care about it and just keep on dismissing it. A hopeless discussion if you ask me (but who is).
Well, in that case the following scale 1:1 Airfix models are on display at:
Brooklands : Vickers Wellington
Yeovilton : Fairey Albacore
Hendon : Supermarine Southampton
Hendon : Bristol Beaufort
Hendon : Fairey Battle
Hendon : Bristol Bulldog
Canada : HP Hampden
Under construction using a lot of glue are
Douglas Boston by Steve Milnthorpe and the Fairey Barracuda at Yeovilton, and not to forget the Short Stirling and AW Whitley. You need your ceiling reinforced and a very thick steel cable to hang those.
Some people do anything to make sure that at least an example of an extinct aircraft type will be available for the future generations. Others just keep on ranting.
I don’t think I qualify enough for this forum so I will shut up and leave you to it.
Cheerio chaps
Cees
HP57An identity
Well, the centre fuselage of the Halifax originates from HR792, and if we use the religion from our warbirdguru Paul Coggan, the identity of an aircraft is determined by the centre fuselage of an airframe, then the Hally has a definite identity. Apart from that the wings from the Hastings are actually adapted Halifax wings with even the partnumbers beginning with 57… just like they did with the York.
So with an original set of wings and the majority of an original fuselage that would make it a bloody authentic Halifax!!!!! Now, all we need is to go to our local MP’s or whatever and pressure them to have the IWM donate their nosesection to the project (as requested by YAM a decade ago) and we are nearly there. Non standard engines and undercarriage do detract from the appearance of an aircraft but are not a means of dismissing the work done to restore a Halifax or any other type. That would be (dare I say it) an insult to the hard work these people have done. I take my hat off to them.
Suppose the Stirling boys reconstruct a full size Stirling built from reconstructed drawings with the odd original part in it ( I have a Stirling tailwheel with tyre in my shed destined to be put under it) will that one be shot down in flames time and time again??
Come on people,
Freddy AKA Cees
HP57In defense of the YAM’s Hally
Here we go again,
What is it that makes the YAM’s Halifax such an easy target to have a go at?
Come on Lancman, even you should appreciate all the hard work being done over more than a decade to bring back a Halifax to Halifax country Yorkshire.
Through hard labour and with minimal resources (at least in the early days) YAM have managed to recreate one of the unsung heroes of RAF Bomber Command. OK, I agree that it isn’t a fully 100 % reconstruction with some short cuts along the way and I do not like those myself but what do you see when you stand in front of it?
A Handley Page Halifax standing on its own wheels, now that hasn’t been matched for a while has it (look out for NA337 in the near future), but for the UK warbird fans this is a huge achievement.
I have had the privilege to have a look inside when the airframe was almost completely bare, but things have changed since, just take a look on the website on Tarrant Rushton airfield where there are a lot of excellent pictures of a fully fitted out Halifax interior.
OK, YAM was advised by BAe not to overstress the airframe with all sorts of fittings etc, but that’s exactly what they have done, and the result is nothing but fantastic (OK, the nose section should actually have been painted black but who is nitpicking? I won’t ).
If a set of original undercarriage legs are not to be found then what to do? Ok make some new ones from steel with a fibreglass covering (the legs are not from fibreglass, the covering is but moulded from an original undercarriage leg from the RAF Museum).
It has been carried out very well and is functional so that the aircraft can be moved around .
About the construction of the “Airfix” model, well the cockpit is made from wooden frames (alas) but with metal stringers en skin giving the correct appearance of a wartime Halifax. I do have a video showing the reconstruction showing retired workmen working hard on its construction. It is amazing how such a non-existent piece (the IWM wouldn’t want to give theirs up) could be made. I also agree about the noseglazing which looks terrible, but YAM does have an original Perspex nosecone which was sent to Canada (I have seen it ) and as far as I know has been sent back to the UK. YAM is working on a solution to have the noseglazing fixed, same goes for the tailplane as Peter pointed out. The short cuts are being corrected which is a sensible thing to do. I don’t like the engineinstallation or the props but until better looking items are found or donated this is the only possible way to show a complete Halifax and besides most people don’t even know that the props turn the other way, did you Lancman?
So, to conclude my rant, could we please stop making easy remarks about the Halifax and admire the aircraft as a fitting memorial to the many airmen who flew in her and who died in her as well. It is very easy to do the same on the Lancaster but why? Only thing I wonder about is why I keep finding so many Lancaster wrecks in Holland but only a few Halifaxes……mmmmmmm.
Cheers
Freddy AKA Cees
p.s. Lancman, did you know that there are drawings showing the Grand Slam installation and the Upkeep bomb in the Halifax?
😀
HP57Yes, that would be a sensible thing to do with the wreckage in storage.
I have some photographs I got from the Stirling Project and although battered the sections can be of great value to reconstruct the drawings necessary to build a Stirling. But I also heard from them that the RAFM doesn’t want to give it up (why not, they did that with the AW Albemarle sections). The same goes for the museum at Vraux, France who have some thirty feet of Stirling fuselage but members of the Stirling Project have already visited it but the bottom is missing as well as fairly hacked about on the inside, and the French are not giving it away either.
For your information, the RAFM also have a Hercules engine and propellor as well as the complete tailwheelassembly of Stirling BF353 which crashed in the IJsselmeer, Holland and was recovered by the Dutch AF during the sixties.
Let’s give the Stirling the much needed boost it so richly deserves. After all, the famous trio of RAF heavies complemented each other.
Cheers
Freddy a.k.a Cees
HP57Well,
All Stirling construction drawings were destroyed, because they weren’t of use anymore. That’s also the reason why the Stirling Project has to reconstruct the drawings first before they can start reconstructing a Stirling. And there are more types of which the drawings don’t exist or just a small number of them have survived.
HTH
Freddy
HP57That’s the trouble with the Spitfire construction numbers (and a lot of other types), because of the war they did not think it important enough to keep records of the construction numbers. Supermarine itself was infamous for there is no complete logical sequence where you can tie a RAF-serial to a factory number other than by guessing using known serial/number tie-ups.
Hope this helps
Freddy
HP57Ant,
The only treatment I am aware of is replacing the luminous dials in the instrumentpanels. I was told by an IWM official.
Cheers
Freddy
HP57A bit late, I know but if anyone is interested in an update regarding the condition of the Halifax cockpit section at Lambeth here it is:
All glowing in the dark instruments have been removed and the faces have been replaced with photographic facsimiles of the original instrumentfaces, but the difference is hardly noticable. The entire cockpit has been repainted in a fresh interior green colour including the bombardiersection (not authentic if you ask me, but it does look less gloomy and visibility is enhanced for the visitor, sacrifices will have to be made). If all goes to plan she will be opened up for the public again and visitors can view the crewstations after about a year of blocking off which frustrated a certain afficianado of HP’s wonderful design, namely me. I understand that the same treatment is going to be done to the Lancaster cockpit section next to it.
And Lancman………, thanks for defending the Halifax. It is highly appreciated.
Cheers
Freddy
HP57RE: FlyPast article on airfield dumpsites
Hi Bob,
Thanks for your honest and direct reply. Here are my answers:
I quote
>
>I’m sure the editorial staff cruise the forum, but if they
>reply to one they would have to reply to them all and that
>is just not possible. Or do you think you are an exception?
unquote
I don’t think that I am an exeption, that’s why I wanted to know the general opinion among the regulars on this forum about this subject. Judging from the various replies as well as the fact that a large number of people have read the various replies the subject is very much alive and kicking. And you are correct that if the editor received my “complaint” he doesn’t have to reply. But on the other hand, if a large number of people do about the same subject the outcome is a different matter don’t you agree?
quote
>I ask again, have you given the editorial team the courtesy
>of a direct question to them? I very much doubt it.
unquote
Of course you can ask me again, and I can confirm that I have not questioned them directly (has nothing to do with courtesey). I think that if there are many people on this board who agree with my original question, then why should I ask the editorial staff of FP directly? The results are selfexplanatory.
Although I do not wish to call you old-fashioned but I get the feeling that you are trying to shut me up about this subject. And why should that be?
As I said earlier it FP didn’t have any interests in this forum why start one in the first place, to keep people busy? That would be an insult to the very knowledgable people on this forum.
Personally I have great respect for what the editorial staff has done with the magazine over the two decades other than that they have taken a different course as they started with in the early eighties, and I am aware that activities in the UK have decreased, that doesn’t mean they have stopped altogether. As well as that there is an enormous amount of activity going on in Europe alone. And judging again from the various replies I am not alone.
I have no hard feeling towards you, and I hope you don’t have any towards me.
Cheers
Freddy
HP57RE: FlyPast article on airfield dumpsites
Bob,
Two items spread over a ten year period cannot be called heavy coverage if you ask me.
Ok, about the Wellington recovery, which I enjoyed very much, when will the follow up article be published, I think you can wait a long time for that one. And that’s what so important to see how a certain projects evolves. FP haven’t covered the ongoing restoration of NA337 for years while the progress on her is nothing short of fantastic.
And why would FP issue a forum without any meaning to it? I agree that it is a ideal way for enthusiasts to meet and exchange information but there is always a catch and in my opinion the editorial staff of FP would check every now and then what’s discussed and perhaps get some inspiration.
Also having read the replies in answer to the original topic, I don’t expect to see locations published where remains are still to be found, only articles after the recovery took place, that way the recoverer/recovery group wouldn’t have to be afraid that someone else tried to pick the site clean (I’m not that thick).
Cheers
Freddy
HP57RE: FlyPast article on airfield dumpsites
Steve,
You are absolutely right, it is not just a matter of hearing a story and then waiting till the parts come crawling out of the ground. There are many interesting sites where servicable parts have been found or are still to be found.
What about Little Snoring where Tony Agar dug up some very interesting Mossie bits and pieces, in fact his cowlings came from one of these digs. Also there was an report about a decade ago where dozens of Typhoon firewalls as well as all sorts of useful parts were recovered. The site was used after the war to scrap Typhoons. There are many more of these sites that could yield very usable material. Research and keep on trying are the name of the game here. What about the Castle Bromwich site where Spitfires are reported to have buried as well as tons of spares, engines etc.
In fact aviation archaelogy is a very important part of the whole warbird community these days with dug up remains now forming the starting point for rebuild projects. That’s why I find it strange that FP stopped with the pages covering this kind of work.
As Lancman said when KD took over the balance shifted towards the jets, and althoug that is interesting as well the balance was disturbed and nowadays I wonder if I should have bought a certain copy of FP. I still do because I have done that since the beginning of FP.
If you look at the news in FP, the quality is less than other magazines which I shall not name. But if you take for instance the past ten years then a large number of recoveries have taken place around Europe (not Britain, is that the reason?) of which only scant info has reached the pages of FP, while this is where they started with in the first place.
You want examples? Well, in Holland there have been many recoveries going on with the past few months seing a Wellington recovered with two missing airmen, a few weeks ago a Lancaster was recovered of which 15 (yes, fifteen) tons of wreckage was recovered. A very substantial Lancaster has been found in the IJsselmeer of which a few sentences were published in FP many years ago but since a lot more has been recovered. One call to the organisation involved and I think they can have the whole story with photographs et al. A Lancaster in the same IJsselmeer with five missing persons will be recovered during march/april 2003, followed by the very first Stirling to crash on Dutch soil in May 1941 together with six missing crewmembers. What about the investigation into “Dinghy” Youngs Lancaster of Dambusters fame that has been going on for years now and a site has been pinpointed. Same goes for Germany, you only have to look into the pages of FLugzeug Classic and you know that a number of very interesting German engines were recovered at Frankfurt airfield complete with photographs, something I missed in FP (or the other British magazines). Same goes for Belgium where a Halifax was recovered with three missing Canadian airmen, an epic recovery but nothing was reported in Britain. In France a DB610 engine of a He-177 was recovered which is one of the most rare things to find in this field (no pun intended) but nothing was reported.
This should not be taken as a full frontal attack on magazines as FP but I think that those who buy the issues are also entitled to read not only about jets etc, But also what is going on in aviation archeology, something that got FP started in the first place.
Just my view of course
Cheers
Freddy
HP57RE: One Hundred years – Five Aircraft
Well,
Not in order of preference:
DC3, T-6, Concorde, Boeing 747, C-130 Hercules.
Apart from that as many Halifaxes as you can find.
Cheers
Freddy
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