HP57Nils,
That’s a bomb release mechanism. Fitted to the bomb and then hoisted into the bombbay of the Wellington.
Cheers
Cees
HP57Ford made just a few too many to be fitted solely to the Hurricane II.
I guess XX refers to 20-series for Lancaster, some Mossies etc.
And Halifax II’s and V’s
Cees
HP57Hear hear, Gibson and Nigger must be turning in their graves along with the rest of 617 that took part.
Martin
In what sense? :confused: (easy, I’m Dutch 😎 )
I meant the film should be made true to the events that took place including Nigger and Barnes Wallis’ pink elephant that Harris wanted to buy.
If that would make Gibson and Co turning in their graves…… 😉
Cees
HP57First, I have Airfix to blame for my Halifax obsession. I had never heard about it and was one of the Lancaster only-brigade. When suddenly (I remember it well, as on the same day Tito of Yogoslavia was buried so must have been in 1981) I spotted a Halifax kit. I was hooked immediately. So you see, Airfix also made sure that the aviation bug was never without food.
The worst: Mmm actually most of them, I still hate the canopies, why couldn’t they get those right?
The best: the 1/24 Spitfire and Hurricane. Great models
Most built: the 1/72 Spitfires I think followed by the 1/72 Halifax and Lancaster and Stirling.
Oh, and I fully agree about the Roy Cross masterpiece boxart.
But on the other side I was also annoyed many times that the old kits were being re-re-re-released while there was a dire need for a decent Stirling and Wellington.
Airfix, a magic name, hope they save it.
Cheers
Cees
HP57Beautiful,
What a fantastic (and not because it’s a Spit :p )
Now, where’s that Mk 22. Would make a fantastic sight as well.
Cees
HP57Chaps,
This topic has grown from something irritating to a great conversation.
Don’t let it slip back into mudthrowing.
Of course these things still happend, but that doesn’t mean that everybody is doing it.
There have been cases like these in Holland as well, particularly during the fifties when scrapdealers (some very notorious ones) didn’t bother to report any human remains and just threw them back into the hole together with a full bombload as well.
Most organisations (and I am speaking of course from own experience in Holland) are organized and work withing the parameters of the law. The MRA doesn’t work here. Let’s discuss how it should be done instead of how it shouldn’t. Even today we are sometimes confronted with negative opinions by people who don’t know what they are talking about. Very annoying.
keep it sharp, but civil. Or Moggy will have you for breakfast :p
Cees
HP57Hi DS,
Yes, eventually ! At present the Stirling Project members are scattered around the country and not much is being done to get the ‘relics’ ready for display. But this is soon changing as one of our members is heading back to the Wyton are to live. There is another one of our members in the area but he cannot move these items on his own as they are very heavy, the last thing we need is the old health and safety chappie kicking us out ! ( You should have seen the hole punched through the back of the flatbed when the Chinook ‘placed’ the undercarriage on it !!! 😮 )
Richy.
Richy,
Good show, give my regards to Martin, paul and Giuseppe
There was nothing usable in the remains of N3654 unfortunately.
Cees
HP57Ali
The implication I saw was that ‘crash bang wallop’ out it all came with possible desecration of human remains.
I am not a passionate digger/’ologist/wreck hunter/grave robber or whatever on these events just a technical adviser. I have done three of these TV digs and been on a small number of other digs in SE England and France.
On one of the latter in the UK, significant human remains were found. This despite the pilot having been given a full military funeral and all the boxes ticked and the license issued.
I actually found the whole process of dealing with it very moving. It was a beautiful sunny day. The venerated pieces and uniform items were very carefully collected and placed discreetly away from the site under a tree in the shade by an adjacent river, awaiting the police and coroner’s representative. There then followed a chain of events leading to a full military re-burial ceremony with family participation.
Mark
And that is exactly how it should be.
The average < fill in an ****ology name> knows exactly what he/she is doing and mostly for the right reasons. Piecing back together the events of that particular tragic moment in time. Finding out what has happened to the crew (well, beforehand in the archives of course) if there are any missing airmen make sure they are given a decent burial with next of kin present and the full works. Make a decent display in a museum to serve as a monument to the crew and human sacrifice in general. Any items that can be used in static restorations/reconstructions using them for that purpose (in my case at least).
Bottom line: making that list with missing persons as short as possible.
That is what’s going on in The Netherlands.
Can’t speak for the other countries but I doubt it if it would be much different.
It is all too easy to dismiss people active in this field, but usually that is because people do not know what it takes to make sure missing persons are finally given what they so rightly deserve (about five years of frustration,dealing with red tape, ignorant civil servants, mayors etc.)
Nobody pays me or my fellow volunteers who give up spare time, invest money etc.
Would I call this a hobby? Think again and then people start to understand the whole process.
😉
Cees
HP57Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m sure that in the 1970’s Gerrie Zwannenberg was a leader in the recovery of many aircraft that appeared after great tracts of land had been drained and wreckage appeared in broad daylight.
I wish the MOD shared the same compassion and drive as the Dutch and US for example in sekking out MIA’s.
You are right
Gerrie Zwanenburg was a leader in the field but he was came at the right time as the polders were being drained and the newly found aircraft wrecks HAD to be recovered because they were a danger to the workers draining the land. Only wrecks were removed where they were obstructing work such as digging ditches etc. There are even now wrecks still lying in the polders such as a Stirling we have recently been made aware of by the landowner as he was snagging his machinery on wreckage. Strangely Mr Zwanenburg (who remained a civilian in the Dutch AF but was given a rank) doesn’t seem to like the recovery groups operating in the Netherlands, which is a strange thing as that was exactly the way he started out himself. The many recoveries during the sixties and seventies in the polders made excellent PR for the team while all they were doing is cleaning up a large area of former lake bed.
Things have changed in recent years and now there is a good cooperation between the offical AF recovery group and ours. In the recent past this has resulted in some very succesful recoveries as well as the official burial of 11 RAF crewmembers during 2003.
Cheers
Cees
HP57http://www.arg1940-1945.nl/
….is a nice start to learn about aircraft recovery in the netherlands, but there are more. Cees is this your group?
Hi Bert,
Yes, you can see me in action there :p
Cees
HP57To be quite honest I wish that I had never, ever, received a copy of Buck’s letter, or that I ever worked out what has happened! As both Lady Bader and Air Commodore Graham Pitchfork will both testify, all it has ever brought me is grief!
Typical of Bader, tho, why couldn’t he just have been shot down by a Jerry, would have been a lot simpler and avoided all this controversy!
You can always ask him, but that would take some time I think. 😀
The absolute truth will probably never be known.
Cheers
Cees
HP57Maybe some of our Dutch friends can help answer this question…
Can anyone tell me on what basis the Dutch Air Force excavate aircraft crash sites? Is it when ordnance or the remains of the crew are found accidently by civilians, or is there a policy in place to excavate and recover if they know human remains are present generally?
Just curious.
Cheers
Elliott,
The Dutch Air Force only investigate and recover aircraft crash sites if there is a formal request by the local authorities (usually the local Mayor). There is no active policy. The Genevea Convention etc. doesn’t work here. But in the past (our Foundation has been very active in this) wrecks containing human remains and/or bombs have been successfully recovered at the initiative from private organisations. The problem is that the local town, villages etc. shy away from these big operations because of the costs involved. About 85% will be paid back by the Dutch Gouvernment but a certain amount per head of the local inhabitants will have to be paid by the community itself although fundraising has been succesfull as well.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Cees
HP57Isn’t that the (Dutch) Spitfire from Aviodome here in the Netherlands??
Snif, yes it is, snif 🙁
Cees
HP57It had been recovered on January 23, 2005 by the Stirling Project.
See here: http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk/
It’s in the latest newsletter no 7
Cheers
Cees
HP57Oh oh,
Mark12’s cover has been blown. 😮
Darn 😀
To the others, don’t bother to clarify your points of view regarding this documentary. I cannot receive Channel 4 in Holland so cannot comment on it . But it makes me sick to read how people are slagging of others only because they have a different opinion about Bader. He was a controversial person in life and an inspiration to many others. Noboby can be expected to be a nice guy, same goes for Guy Gibson and others. The had a job to do and did it in a way to inspire (or put off) others.
So Mr Sakars replies to Mr Saunders (just being polite here) and vice versa, someone else joins in and the whole thing starts over again. Who cares. It’s a documentary anyway and won’t change the world as it is now. Let people see the documentary and give them the chance to form an own opinion, without researchers falling over each other claiming they did the best research with the only possible truth. Perhaps I should write my FIRST book, by the time I have published my NINETEENTH book, AFTER THE BATTLE I can look back to reflect.
Sad.
Cees (no libel intended)
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