Geoff_BJonsey
Wasnt the Sonar network in the GUIK gap dismantled when the US pulled out of Iceland, got a feeling they are down to just SSN patrols now :confused:.
Geoff_BLeasing F-18s is illogical. There isn’t a single argument in favour, & many arguments against.
Training? Not needed. We can do that by putting our pilots through USN training, & then lending them to the USN to increase proficiency & gain experience.
For FAA use? Silly. We don’t & won’t have anything for them to fly off. By the time QE is ready for aircraft, we’ll have F-35C.
For the RAF? What can they do that Tornado & Typhoon can’t?
It’s an additional type, at a time when we’re disposing of Harriers (which can do things neither Tornado nor Typhoon can) mostly to reduce the number of types in the inventory.
On anther tack, I see on the Naval News thread that the French are continuing to fiddle around with the PA2 design, & it’s getting further & further from CVF. It’s shrunk to 60000 tons, & a single island.
Swerve
I think you’ll find the idea is to lease them for Carrier training in the US, maintained and supported by the USN in the USA. Probably something on similar lines to the RAF Predators of 39 Sqdn which is embedded in a US unit. No doubt it will only be for a dozen aircraft at most
Afterall we can’t exactly embed FAA crew in the USN & RAF and then expect them to magically reform in to a squadron ready to jump into F-35C’s in 2019/20 !.
We will need to borrow aircraft at some stage for testing and proving the CATOBAR systems and its unlikley to be an F-35C as they too will need to be tested and approved.
I rather doubt they would be used as an operational front line unit so would be no threat to the RAF, although i suppose they could do an exercise deployed aboard a USN CVN for the experience.
BTW PA2 is the French 2nd Carrier requirement, there were two designs, the Juliet from DCN and CVF from Thales. Like the UK Thales were asked to work with the loosing bidder to develop the design. Sounds like since the project was put in limbo, DCN have taken leadership and incorporated the elements of the Thales design into their Juliet design rather than the other way round.
However they still have to wait on if the PA2 will be funded or not in their next (5yr) defence budget.
Geoff_BWell they only formally announced the switch to CATOBAR last week, they have a until the next review (re Election) to iron out some of the obvious capability gaps.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a possible Hawkeye deal probably involving pooling resources with France to replace the AEW Seakings.
Plus there was a rumour on the UK Switch to F-35C thread about leasing Hornets (could be superbugs ?) so they may be possibly looking at providing the FAA with some as part of the training deal with the USN.
No doubt these would probably stay in the US, to provide us with a number of fully carrier qualified pilots who can then probably join in with the F-35C induction unit in the US.
Whilst the F-35C unit builds up toward the end of the decade they could then use some of the F-18’s to get the QE tested and certified in advance of the F-35C becoming avialable
Of course that is a logical solution, the reality is probably more political in origin, officially the FAA is kept going in fixed wing aviation, the Carriers are therefore technically no longer white elephants come the next election as they would ‘have aircraft’ for them, and we haven’t offically bought another aircraft type.
Geoff_BF/A-18s for what?
The first UK carrier that could operate them will commission in 2020… right when the UK is supposed to get its first F-35C.
Don’t be so keen to knock it, its quite possible they envison a USN based training school in a similar manner to the Germans did with the F-4F or UAE with its F-16s.
With the switch to CATOBAR carriers it may be that they intend to keep an active trained unit in the US using leased Hornets, start to get pilots ready for Carrier training and possibly operate off a CVN for the odd exercise, then when the first F-35C become available experienced pilots can join in the testing program to build up a core of experienced crews ready for the first F-35C squadron.
Plus some of those Hornets could be used to test and qualify QE when ready ?
One of those many wait and see questions which could take some time.
Geoff_BThe F-35C has a beefier airframe to facilitate controlled crash landings.. er I mean carrier landings, twin from wheels, a hose & drogue refueling system, larger wings, larger tail surfaces, and larger vertical stabilizers.
Actually the B has a beefier airframe too as it does a free fall drop instead.
Geoff_BI agree 2015 float out is likely to be about the maximum this could be pushed to. 3 years in fit out and 2 years on manufacturers and operational sea trials though???.
Don’t forget with QE it will be first of class sea trials, these do take alot longer, thats why the 2nd in the class tends to enter service about the same time as the lead ship.
The basic build schedule of the ships may not actually differ too much from the initial plans but fitting out and testing is probably going to be a longer process.
Geoff_BI have no doubt that if they fit EMALS or EMCAT more diesels or Gas Turbines will be required to run it.
There is no chance that MK13 steam catapults will be fitted because the RN doesn’t know how to look after steam plant anymore and doesn’t want to relearn.
Also weight is important, CVF performance is marginal as it is for CATOBAR operations so the top weight of the plant required for catapult launch and landing will be critical!
I think you mean boilers, they should be very much aware of Steam plant with Nuclear powered Submarines !.
Don’t forget its a dedicated steam plant for the Catobar system so not sure what the boiler requirement would be for steam catapults or what sort of modern boiler system could be fitted. Obviously it was investigated by Thales for PA2, but no idea what their preferred solution was.
Geoff_BYes we may have to wait a few months before the MOD decide on which system to use. EMALS should have done some actual launches with real aircraft by then and the Converteam may have been able to prove the concept for a full sized Emkit system, although i doubt they will have a design suitable for operational use on Aircraft Carrier by then.
Yes there is excess capacity for additional Gas turbines to provide additional power for a EmCat system, although can’t remember if it was in the engine room or in the sponsons that the space was reserved for them ? (At one stage the design had Queen mary style propulsion pods and the gas turbines were going the be fitted in the sponsons under each island, but this was deemed too radical and risky at the time (during the cost cutting exercise where the design was revised to the Delta design from the larger BAE/Thales design originally selected).
Geoff_BActually they will need to decide what systems they are going to put in first, whilst they have a fair idea what holes need to be cut in the deck to accomodate the catapult tracks and the Arrestor wires along with the extenions to the angled deck, they don’t actually know what systems are going to be out in there.
Whilst they are funding the Emcat technology demonstrator, they have also paid for access to the new USN kit. Are the UK developments a contingency plan in case the USN ones prove too expensive/flawed or is it buy British and hope they have the systems working before need to start building them into the ships ?.
It may well take another 6-12 mths for them to make their choice and sign the contracts for production units before the carriers can be suitably redesigned to fully fit the new hardware.
Interesting question on electomagnetic cats as they intended to be more efficient and less brutal in the acceleration, do they still need to be 90m in length or would 75m suffice ? Just wondered as this may effect the layout and flight deck ops as a result
Geoff_BQE may well undock in 2014 and be basically completed by 2016 as there will be builders sea trials, first of class sea trials and working ine before they get near aircraft qulifications. After all how long has Daring been at sea before she actually entered service.
BTW will it Coverteam doing the Emcat rather than EMALS or it that something yet to be decided
Geoff_BWith the switch to cats the CVF’s deck layout is really suboptimal. My criticism towards CdG, of being unable to perform simultaneous launch and recovery, is valid for CVF also. Even more so, cause we’re dealing with 65.000ts ships here. All the flight ops on CVF will require extensive deck maneuvering, crossing the deck multiple times, cause literally all the positions are the wrong way round.
Sigh …. In the end a ship 50% larger than a 27C will have only 50% of the latter’s fighting power. The manpower advantage comes not from layout and design, but from unrelated technological advances like GT-electric propulsion and computer networks.
Actually the original 300m Thales design initially selected had longer bows and hanger as this is where the 20m was removed from the design. Unfortunately the shortening of the hull leads to the fwd catapult fouling the landing area and the length of the cat means it couldn’t be fitted on the starbord side as it would start wher the Island is currently located.
Utterly meaningless trying to compare a CVF with an Essex, the aircraft and and ships are generations apart.
Geoff_BDoes anyone know if the CVF has a magazine for nuclear weapons?
Why would it as we disposed of tactical Nukes back in 1997, and they will only focus on strategic weapons ay the moment.
Geoff_BIrrelevant anyway, the French have massive budget problems themselves, and its looking ever more likely that Rafale will never go beyond the 180 aircraft budgeted for so far. PA2 was cancelled because there was no money for it, and therefore there is no money to buy a CVF either. If there were money for a CVF then PA2 would never have been given the axe! 😉
PA2 hasn’t been axed yet AFAIK, they just put the decision back to either the end of this year or the start of next so they know if they have to include it in their next 5 year defence budget or not. Charles De Gaulle had a couple of these before it was eventually ordered.
Geoff_BLieger
There isn’t really an Angled deck module as the CVF is built with sponsons both sides. The only extra bits are likely to be a round off over the stern in angled to match the angled landing deck, an extention at the fwd end of the port side sponson to maintain the full width of the landing area a little further and an exteneded sponson platform for the landing sight.
Of course the flight deck will need to be fitted for the catapults and wires together with their associated machinery and extra engine to provide the power.
The Angled flight deck mods will also reqire a revision to the distribution of the weaponry as the extensions go where we currently have light gun positions and i suppose the port side fwd Phalanx may need to be relocated from the fwd egde of the sponson as aircraft will be taking off or bolting directly over if. The CGI artwork of the PA2 gives a clue.
The ACC and BAE and Thales are going to be busy not oonly with the revised design but also the CGI and promo videos to illustrate the new revised format the carriers are taking.
Geoff_BBut the last work slowdown actually cost us even more money, and if the hulls are delayed getting wet then where the hell are they going to build the T26s?
Plus we don’t know how the design will play out and if they are designed for constuction in one yard, through BVT or across the remaining British Shipbuilding industry.
The major blocks should be through the main BVT yards by mid decade so i suspect they will start the build process in 2016 ish to hit 2020 service date.
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