Geoff_BWell the answer is F-35C in about 2020 – nuff said speculation over.
Geoff_BItaly gets to build a F35 production and mainteinance plan at Cameri, but not because of US aid.
Had UK been smarter, the production plant for europe would be somewhere in the UK. You’ve been the only Tier 1 partner of the programme, but still you’ve managed nothing constructive from it. It takes investments to make money.
BAE Systems were smarter, they get more for building 20% of EVERY F-35 than they would just assembling F-35 kits from the US.
The UK aircraft will be assembled and delivered direct from the US, so the UK govt didn’t feel the need to demand and pay for a UK assembly line especially as the numbers of aircraft required has dropped.
Geoff_BLiger
Well from the way Fox said it, he implied their might be something, its quite possible they have already approached and got agreement from our Allies to provide something to get our crews trained in advance of the JCA entering service. As to what and when thats another matter.
We still have to train and prepare the crews for Carrier ops and the F-35C just won’t be available in numbers or in time for that job so an interim solution is nessessary, and we can’t send all the squadron & flight deck crew to do a tour on a US or French Carrier for 18 mths.
I’m not sure but the way they are dropping hints without giving answers together with rumours of only 40 F-35C is making me start to wonder if they are might be looking to fill out the airgroup with another type for an interim period untill additional Dave C can be procurred ?. Basically use it to get the training and working practices done, get the carriers operational whilst the F-35C are delivered and brought into service :confused:
G
Geoff_BExcept Japan are replacing those Hybrid destroyers with Hyuga class Escort Cruisers which are in effect what Invincible was originally planned to be !!!.
Hopefully the next RFA’s we get will have the same avaiation capacity as the Fort Victoria’s to ensure we can carry a decent ASW helo element within a task force.
G
Geoff_BWell with the Defence Review due tomorrow we should finally get to hear what the governments plans are for the CVF carriers, and their airgroup.
Indications from Fox & Osbourne appear to show that both will eventually be completed as aircraft carriers and one won’t be down graded into a lesser LPH as had been mentioned. Fox also has implied that F-35B and STOVL was actually the wrong choice for the CVF/JCA program and a CATOBAR solution would be preferred for closer interaction with the USN & MN carriers so does this mean they will definatley be switched to CATOBAR ?
The Harriers are also mooted to be retired early leaving the CVS as LPH and CVF QE without any potential fixed wing aircraft on completion which appeared to stir up the press yesterday, although actual timelines for these things should really be taken into account before people jump to the wrong conclusions.
Now a question, will they carry on building QE as per the existing plans avec Skijump, or will they complete her flush decked possibly with the Angled deck and catapult tracks laid out but not fitted ?
Just wondered as being first of class she will be required to do a fair stint on builders sea trials and first of class sea trials to ensure the design is good, the build is sound and the ship meets her performance requirements. That way any urgent changes can be incorporated into PoW whilst still in build.
In effect even if completed in 2016 it will still be 2018 before she would be ready for actual aircraft operations anyway !
Fox also implied yesterday on the telly that they may procure an interim aircraft whilst awaiting F-35 deliveries to train crews in fast jet carrier aircraft and possibly provide a token airgroup when the carriers first start their carrier qualifications.
One thing if the design is to be changed, the RN, BAE and the Carrier Alliance are going to have to produce new artwork, cgi and videos to replace all the STOVL based versions they currently use to promote the carriers :diablo:
G
Geoff_BWell hopefully tomorrow we will get the answer as to F-35B or F-35C for the UK and which service gets them.
(Osborne has indicated that both ships will be Aircraft carriers and Fox indicated that we may get an interim aircraft which is uppose is for training the squadrons and deck hands in fast jet practices in advance of the carriers being ready sea)
Of course its quite possible we will only get the general overall aspects of the Defence Review tomorrow and have to await on further communications later on to get down to the nitty gritty stuff.
Geoff_Balthough i don’t get the point of commissioning work on SRVL last week if they are going to the C…. maybe something else is going to happen, they are being mysterious!
there is hope yet!
Nope not really, don’t forget the instruction was to carry on as if the F-35B as preferred choice was going to be the final choice until instructed otherwise. Thus work continued on that assumption and that contract notice was just something that had been agreed earlier in the year.
Come Wednesday it may well be cancelled, unless the USMC want to fund it. The interesting one will be what about the three pre-production aircraft being built, do we trade them with the US for C variants and help out with the F-35C program instead ?
Geoff_BI just wonder if they maybe misreading whats being said, It does say RAF to loose Harriers but they may well put them under FAA control and relocate them to Yeovilton or Culdrose.
After all it does appear extremely at odds with thier vision of Carrier groups in 2020 if the current set up is disbanded in 2011 or when ever as you can’t expect to retain air group experience by rotating Pilots & ground crew through the USN for the next 10 years.
The problem is currently there are alot of hints but not a great deal of facts and until we see the big picture were some what clutching at straws and like the press jumping to the wrong conclusions.
Now come Wednesday we should have some real stuff to moan about :diablo:
Geoff_BRe the carriers, I think it would be great to have them, but Chox does raise a good point, having not had large carriers since 1977 are they absolutely vital?
Can anyone provide data on how vital carriers have been in the last 10 years?
Well Afghanistan 2001 the Tornados couldn’t get there to support our the Marines and the most the RAF could do was to provide excellent Tanker cover in country to support the US & French carrier aircraft operating from Bay of bengal.
Iraq 2003 the RAF were nearlly scuppered from taking part as NATO allies refused over flight permissions as did Saudi. There was some serious backroom deals going on that allowed the Aircraft to fly to Kuwait from Cyprus over some of the most closely watched airspace in the world….
Basically the Tornado’s are the result of Cold War compromise. They are two small and short legged for effective deep strike aircraft and there are no alternatives available in the time frame and cost margin that we can afford to replace them with. The Carrier Strike allows us to exert force and thus influence around the globe to protect our interests without having to arrange and fund overflight, refuelling points and suitable local airfields to deploy our Air Force.
As to UK defence what are all these Typhoons doing ? !!!, thats all they are at the moment Air Defence aircraft as only the later Tranches have the true A2G strike capability.
I doubt that we will see Harrier completely lost, but we may see Joint Force Harrier switched to FAA control and relocated to act as a cadre of carrier pilots and flight deck crew and of course in case we need them till JCA comes on line. Tornados will no doubt be earmarked for phasing out over the next 10 years with the force consolidated on one base only.
But we’ll have to wait and see for next week to see whats actually decided.
Geoff
Geoff_BNah thats just their earlier 1/1250 scale model they produced for somebody else. The 1/700 CVF should be quite good as it has had support from the Carrier Alliance so should be pretty accurate and detailed.
Cheers
Geoff
Geoff_BIt only returned to Toulon as it that was the best place to do the repairs, no doubt if it had happened further in to the cruise they would have repaired at their next port of call and it wouldn’t be news.
It just spins out like bad news as they had just announced it had set sail on its 4 mth mission, and within hours were saying its had to return to port. If it was a serious problem signalling a delay to the cruise or cancellation then it would be news worthy.
Geoff_BBack onto CVF, Gwylam models are currently working on producing a 1/700 resin kit of HMS Queen Elizabeth CVF due for release in the coming months. Sound be in the <£100 mark which is not too bad for the material and size of model as a Resin Type 23 in the same scale is about £50.
The kit will represent how the ship is currently envisaged to look based on the current information from the builders and will include F-35B & Merlin aircraft.
G
Geoff_BBecuse France has nor been in active combat since 2001, fighting two conflicts which have been eating into the defence budget all that time and wearing out kit & ammo at a greater rate than the budget allows for….
Geoff_BThe FT also says Cameron has backed both carriers and quote “His preferred option is to redesign the second vessel, delay production, and buy the conventional Joint Strike Fighter, rather than the planned jump-jet variant”.
The Guardian is also backing the FT story and says both Carriers are safe.
As I said before, for UK STOVL F35 B looks like a rather dead duck.
Well we just have to wait and see whats announced next Tuesday, if the article is correct then do they imply redesigning PoW for CATOBAR operations and then running QE as STOVL with Harriers until the CATOBAR JCA aircraft and PoW enter service. Then should funding permit QE will then be refitted to CATOBAR standard ?
The other aspect if that is the case is that the F-35B may no longer meet the UK requirements. Afterall it was supposed to be an affordable STOVL supersonic strike fighter originally – if the Tornado GR4 is now earmarked for the chop as appears to be the case then the F-35 & Carrier Strike then come to the fore as the spearhead of UK policy thus the C’s greater load & range now become a factor.
G
Geoff_BAm I insane?
Nope just been watching too much Gerry Anderson stuff as kid :D.
Sounds very Thunderbird 2/ or Space 1999 Eagle
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