There are clear edges around the airframe as well. Definately photoshop.

If Rafah continues to be a gateway for weapons with which the Palestinians can target Israelis, in total disregard of their repeated obligations, then there will probably be more operations, even after the withdrawl.

Just let me know when the alleged tunnels are found.

The two-state solution provides the best total result, from a democratic, demographic and historical perspective. If you’re telling yourself anything different then you are deluding yourself.

I agree with you, with the exception that the two states should both be viable. An independent Palestine with limited access to the infrastructure on it’s own soil is not a viable state. From what i can tell from under my comfortable cat here in Europe, the independent Palestinian state Israel has proposed is not a viable one, and is becoming less and less so. As long as that remains the case, i will maintain my point of view that the Palestinians are better off giving up their claims for independence and opt for full integration into Israel. No matter how utopian, unrealistic that is, never mind how undesirable you think it to be.

Don’t lecture me about democracy, democracy also means respecting minorities, something the Arab world is painfully unrealiable in regarding its Jewish communities. Israel has its problems but not only do its Arab citizens enjoy more rights than Jews in Arab lands, they also enjoy more rights than Arabs in Arab lands. I see no reason to believe the overall people will be better.

Correct – Arab countries treat their inhabitants like sh!t, and Israeli Arabs (not Arabs in Israeli-held territories mind you!) are politically much better off than their brethren in Arab states. So why disallow the Palestinians to live in such circumstances? Because you’re afraid an Arab majority in Israel will suddenly change Israel’s democratic institutions into a Baathist dictatorship? Why would that be – Arabs being genetically unable to be democratic, or something? I think the Arab minority in Israel proves otherwise, unless they have been planning a lot of coups and attacks over the years that i haven’t heard of.
To bring link back to the original topic of this thread (i hope there is no rule against staying on topic on these boards 😉 ), i also happen to think that adopting the Palestinian population into the Israeli democratic institutions will give a far better chance of convincing other Arab nations that democratisation is definately the way forward. Furthermore, a democratic multi-ethnic and multi-religious Israel would definately smash all excuses Arab nations (like Syria) seem to invent to keep their own states in a semi-permanent mobilisation and opression. It would remove their foreign excuse for domestic abuse 🙂

If you believe this then you haven’t read a single thing I’ve written over the past few years. I want two states, it is you who offers a solution that would leave Israelis as rightless subjects under Palestinian rule.

I never even suggested that Israelis become rightless subjects under Palestinian rule (like the Palestinians are in effect now rightless subjects under Israeli rule). I said a democracy, with political decision making decided by the people with consideration and fairness to all it’s inhabitants. While i’m pretty sure the Israeli policies of certainly the last 37 years haven’t created a lot of Palestinian goodwill towards Israelis, i still have to be convinced that a vast Palestinian majority is destined to ‘push the Jews back into the sea’. Don’t forget that up until the Intifadahs, Palestinians generally used to work in Israel and as far as i know got assimilated pretty reasonably in the Israeli society. Better at least than a lot of the import-Jews which do get Israeli citizenship without any problems, notwithstanding their dictatorial or otherwise non-Israeli background. The Russian and Ethiopian Jews come to mind.

[quote]Viability is an issue, but a pointless discussion without specifics, without geography. Water you say? My water sources are in Turkey, Lebanon and Syria, and with the creation of a Palestinian state will be in Palestine.[quote]
Water is a commodity in a desert area like the Middle East, and should be treated as such. As you say it is a pointless debate without specifics, i absolutely agree. But how come that in Israel water is used plentiful to keep the lawns green and have the occasional swimming pool in a backyard, while the Palestinians (and Syrians) often have to haggle for their access to water or even have it rationed? Considering the lowering level of the Dead Sea because of reduced inflow from the Jordan River, water resources are definately overstrained in the area. Am i right in guessing Israel’s use of water per capita is the highest of all countries in the region?

A few weeks ago Lebanese pumping of a Jordan River tributary simply cut off supply to Israel for a few hours.

That is exactly what i mean. Since i don’t think Lebanon is able to pump out of rivers on Israeli soil, what prevents them from pumping out water from Lebanese rivers? You can’t claim the right on water flowing into your country from another place. A little bit more international cooperation is needed to arrange these things properly rather than just maintaining total the Golan Heights acquifers.

Besides, you want to talk about viability? We once went to war because of viability, because among other things they cut off all access to one of our southern ports, after years of repeated attempts to divert our water sources. What did you call it? Oh, I remember, “a war for lebersaum”. Tell me about this human equality thing again, why don’t you?

But the Sinai was eventually given up completely, and the Israeli settlements there were removed completely, despite the fact that Egypt (or Saudi Arabia for that matter) can still close off the Gulf of Aqaba/Eilat. But peace has been achieved here, because Israel has been willing to compromise enough.
To me, that will to compromise in order to achieve a viable and lasting peace (with circumstances for all parties arranged in such a way that a lasting peace is viable) seems gone. This time, Israel refuses to give up all settlements and territories, and refuses to hand over complete water access. If you accept Israel going to war on such issues, why do you reject Palestinians (or Syrians) continuing their hostility against Israel when perfectly similar issues are at stake?

Oh, I do care about democracy, a great deal actually, but I also live in the real world and not a moralistic playground in which we can talk about human equlity while prescribing the precise opposite.

You are the one stating here that you don’t want Palestinians to enter the Israeli socio-political society since they are appearantly unable to treat others as benign as Israel does. Who is describing the opposite of humane equality here?

The Palestinians can have a state just as Jews can.

I agree if you add the word ‘viable’. Somehow, the creation of a viable Palestinian state seems less and less likely from what i can tell.

Those Arabs and other minorities can and should have the same right within Israel that its Jewish members enjoy.

As long as they remain a minority, right? If not those Arabs suddenly become a bunch of opressing savages who don’t want to do anything but butcher Jews first, then Palestinian Christians and found a state based on the most militant interpretations of the Sharia, right?

Should they become the majority they will shape the country as they find fitting. That is human equality anchored in the real world, not the delusions that if only Israelis were to give up their indepedence they would enjoy some form of gratitude from their former enemies.

An Israeli minority is now shaping the Palestinian territories as they find fitting. That has nothing to do with human equality, that has everything to do with supremacism and the might of a strong military rather than democracy.
The fact that Israel only seriously began considering granting Palestinian independence after it appeared that Jewish-Israeli demographics by natural growth and immigration could not keep up with the Arab population is pretty illustrative if you ask me. I know now i was wrong when i spoke about Lebensraum in the Israeli context (except for the hardliners who wish to expand Israel’s borders to those of the era of King David). The phrase i should have used was ethno-religious cleanliness.

It quite amazing to see that at a time that the Israeli government is trying to push forward a plan to evacuate both Israeli troops and Israeli settlements from the Gaza Strip, you’re actually accusing us of trying to get rid of them!

Have you called the IDF General Staff already? Just to inform them they are currently demolishing the wrong houses during Operation Rainbow? :p

Last month another Arab was elected to sit on the Israeli Supreme Court while only last night a predominantly Arab football club won the national cup and will represent Israel in international tournaments. Our democracy may not be perfect, but neither has yours always been. I want you to say it Arthur, I want to hear it : tell me Jews will be better off living in an Arab country, because that’s what you wish for them. Like Egypt, for instance, which displayed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a Jewish holy book in a UNESCO funded library. I want to see the hyporicy, the detachment from reality which only your European moralistic presumptions can provide. Just say it.

Why do you want me to say the Jews will be better off living in a democratic state with equal rights for Palestinians and Jews? That won’t be the case, i realise that. But i’m pretty sure the Palestinians will be better off, and i sincerely believe that overall (looking at the total population of Israel/Palestine regardless of religion) people will be better off. I don’t give a toss if Species A or Species B is better or worse off in the scenario, i want the total result for Species A + B to be better. If you don’t, then don’t pretend to be democratic because you are not.

To be honest, I find this a very offensive attitude of yours, if not supremacist. Are you really saying here that Jews should not give up their monopoly of power in the combined area of Israel + Palestine (notwithstanding the token-yentl-Israeli minority), leaving the non-Israeli Palestinians as rightless subjects under Israeli rule? If you want to work around this problem and maintain the image of Israel as a democracy by giving the Palestinians independence, i think you should be fair enough to allow the Palestinians a viable independent state. If not, then please tell me the difference between Israel/Palestine and South Africa/Bantustans (Venda, Boputhatswana, you know those ‘independent’ states in South Africa with their water access cleverly cut off and no means of economic development whatsoever).

So now, i want you to tell me you don’t give a toss about democracy or the rights of Palestinians because you as a Jew feel threatened by them having any sort of influence over you. I want to see the supremacism, the detachment from human equality which only your Israeli arrogant presumptions can provide. Just say it.
😀

I think that was the aerodynamic testbed which was flown in the German/Dutch windtunnel, so it didn’t really need much of an undercarriage. The line drawing is nothing spectaculair by the way – if anyone else has a pile of AIMs at hand, it was in the Stealth-article a couple of years back.

It always puts a wry smile on my face when I hear both American and Jewish-Israelis come up with that old chestnut to justify recent internal outrages: that Israel is “the only democracy in the Middle-East”.

Now come on, Steve. You know just as well that as soon as Israel start living up to it’s ‘democratic’ banner, they can remove the Star of David from their flag and turn it into a smiley icon or something like that. Nevertheless, in an ideal world i would love to see that happen: the Palestinians giving up their demands for an independent state, and instead demand citizenship of the country that is currently governing their territories… if only…

It’s a Rafale. Nothing to see here, please move on. Unless maybe someone has actually seen this CCTV broadcast and knows in what context these pictures were shown, posting these pics here is utterly useless unless you want to go in a totally worthless debate on what aircraft you think this Rafale actually is, or try to use all your creativity in thinking of some sort of excuse for CCTV to show a Rafale model.

Yawn.

Geforce,

would i be correct in thinking that you are actually saying that neither the Crusades nor the current War on Terrorism are essentially different than the Viking raids?

*frustrated*

we’re supposed to have moderators, aren’t we? Where are they, exactly? I haven’t seen a single moderator action since they were instituted.

After the announcement of the to-be moderators, nothing has happened. The person who currently has moderating abilities is still only the Webmaster.
Besides, why delete stupidities like this? It’s far more fun for everyone to have a few cheap blows at the gullible morons taking PS-crap like this serious rather than dumping it into the trashcan immediately.