jessmo24The only thing that I have actually read from the exercises is that despite of claims, hopes a wishes, Raptors actually don’t enjoy any decisive advantage over the 4+ in the regimes tested (WVR).
Since neither Raptors nor Rafales have ever even attempted a BVR fight, I find your whole response about a “proof that the Rafale cant beat the Raptor” being exactly the same as usual – a huge stickpile of fanboy BS.
But the Rafale LOST that’s all to it LOL, so don’t mention Rafale and F-22 in the same sentence any more you lost. And the F-22 did lock up the rafale from BVR without being detected.
jessmo24The Raptor beats the Rafale with near any weapons of your choosing. Guns Ir missiles BVR you name it. The Rafale just does not have the radar nor the energy advantage to beat the F-22. and Unlike the Typhoon we actually have proof that the Rafale cant beat the Raptor.
jessmo24y Alon Ben-David
Tel Aviv
Israel’s defense establishment is pressing the government to accept a U.S. offer of 20 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters in return for a renewal of the moratorium on West Bank settlement-building.
Eager to resume the stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, Washington is offering the F-35s, valued at $3 billion, if Israel halts the construction that Palestinians cite as a barrier to negotiations. While the U.S. State Department refused to comment on the offer, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak confirms it was made. “In the past, we wanted to procure 40 F-35s but due to budget constraints we could only afford 20,” he tells Aviation Week. “Now the U.S. is offering to give us the additional 20 in exchange for a 90-day freeze on settlements.”
In addition, the U.S. pledges to provide Israel with more technology and capability to counter the threat from Iran, veto any anti-Israeli resolution in the United Nations or the International Atomic Energy Agency and sign a defense treaty with Israel if a peace accord with the Palestinians can be achieved.
jessmo24Also Ill add that the F-22 doesn’t even need stealth to beat either the Euro fighter or the Rafale. It can win decisively simply by using its energy advantage. BTW here is that LINk it was published in a magizine.
Extracts from AFM :
Lieutenant Grandclaudon wrote:
During DACT […] we shared Red Air & Blue Air, and the ratio was pretty fair. We spent our first week in Al Dhafra doing Red Air versus Typhoon […] The results I gave out [4:0 & 3:1] were when two Rafale took on four Blue Typhoons with a pair of simulated AA-10C Alamo on board. […] We simulate the AA-10C most of the time when we play Red Air.
I should not have given the results, because we were only training assets for RAF pilots, still growing on the Typhoon, but I was so proud of the skills of my pilots and the level we have reached on Rafale, that I did. The threat that we simulated was of course more dangerous than a real MiG-29 or Su-27 because, even if we played the “AA-10C ATLC SOP model”, shooting only at one target at the same time, we enjoyed the benefit of our system as far as situation awareness was concerned.
Lieutenant Grandclaudon wrote:
I did not say we “rubbed them” [the raptors], I said that there was only one shot claimed (i.e. a simulated kill) for the six that were set up. [follow the story about A&C mag claiming not one but 2 kills for the Raptor]
As far as I’m concerned, one or two shots of six BFM encounters is a victory for the F-22, but not an overwhelming one. Not like the one we claimed against the Typhoons afther combat in Solenzara, Corsica, during September (9 set-up: 8 to 1 for the Rafale). The other set-ups versus F-22 were terminated for combat deck, an un-decisive situation or lack of fuel. We never shot them down […]
http://rafale.freeforums.org/atlc-in-uae-rafale-vs-typhoon-rafale-vs-f-22-t93-10.html
jessmo24So if I post you a link discussing how the F-22s ran low on fuel during the exercise, will you offer me a public apology?
jessmo24And they can’t??
ROFL…
Ww, you’re comparing practical to theoretical speed:
When or where you saw an F22 flying M2.4, or whom did you hear flying in an F22, that fast?
(this is why I gave theoretical speeds for comparable fighters in my preceding post, but you obviously turned “on” your uncanny ability to miss the point, again. :D)
Cola if we are going to doubt everything published, then let’s be consistant. Lets agree to never believe anything unless we see it on film. In this cAse we see the F-22 going post stall. I want to see a typhoon do the same.
jessmo24And you doubt the f-22 can sustain 60 degrees?
jessmo24I think that if the F-35B bug can be worked out. It will become extremely difficult to mission kill. I would encourage the U.S. to build atleast 20+ super shelters in places like Guam and Korea, and put F-35bs inside them. ballistic missile strike need to be followed up my precision strikes. Or the air fields will just be repaired within hours. you need to precision strike the stores, repair supplies and related equipment. F-35b would allow you to survive the 1st strike tow the F-35 out to an adjacent access road and launch them. This would give you atleats some light Cap or the ability to retaliate.
As far as AWACS is concerned. if the AWACS are down why not use what remaining raptors you have or F-35s that survive. its not perfect but survivable.
jessmo24you lost me here.
1. The Rafales radar isn’t even as good as a Block 60 F-16s let alone a raptors its isn’t a full AESA and the raf will need power upgrades in order to receive so standard block 60 capabilities.
2. I read where the french said the F-22s used used there radar beacons for WVR ( luneberg lens). THIS makes sense, its the only way they can get to the merge with the Raptor and make it a fair contest.
3. The reason that the kill ratio wasn’t higher was because of fuel consumption.
I suppose super cruise and TV burns alot of gas.
jessmo24So you get the gist of what im saying? radar on or off wont matter the 2 sensors are fused. If you try to go radio off then you only set your self up
for a LPI shot. or hell sneak up on you with guns.
jessmo24Capability to fully passively engage a target that is not emitting.
At present, F-22 is absolutely not capable to do that.. And with the advent of stealth fighters and LPI AESA radars this soon might be the most important feature of all three mentioned.
…read my response above..
The F-22 can passively engage a target using either LPI aesa or the ALQ-94
About the effective detection range of AN/APG-77 according to AW&ST:
AW&ST 2000/03/17, 120 mile (192 km) at “Stealthy mode”.
AW&ST 2000/03/17, 140 to 145 mile (260 to 270 km) at “Non-stealthy mode”.
AW&ST 2000/03/17, radar image with 30 cm-class resolution for the target 100 miles (160 km) away.
AW&ST 2000/03/17, TWS 100 targets at the same time.
According to the reports of Mr.Billsweetman a few years ago, F/A-22 can detect the target of 400~460 km away with the help of ALQ-94 EWs. And the effective detection range of AN/APG-77 is about 185~230 km, which has some sacrifice because of energy / emission controlling for stealthy issue.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8912.html
Its hard to verify the the article since I beleive it was in print. But french rafales where locked up from BVR with no F-22 radars being detected.
The article :
From Paris Air & Cosmos on 29/01/2010
Quote:
Although French aviators showed off a great deal about the “beatings” inflicted by their Rafales on British Typhoons during the last ATLC exercise in the United Arab Emirates, very little was said about the confrontation between Dassault’s delta-wing aircraft and the American F-22As. In out-of-visual-range engagements, the American Raptors did not even condescend to turn on their radars, remaining invisible to the Rafale’s RBE2 [radar system] and Spectra [self-defense system] while precisely locating the electromagnetic waves from the French fighter, thus securing their AMRAAM [missile] launches from a secure distance. On two occasions at least, the F-22As also “tangled” with the Rafales in close combat, securing a “gun kill” each time without much difficulty.
http://rafale.freeforums.org/atlc-in-uae-rafale-vs-typhoon-rafale-vs-f-22-t93-10.html
Have you been living under a rock for the last year or so?
jessmo24Lower RCS: Yes, but F22 lacks an IRST so it cancels using the summation theorem presented above.
Better radar: Both quite close, no “step change”.
Better agility: They are essentially the same, each bettering the other slightly in different areas of agility. I’d go into specifics, but since you are interested only in F22 being better, and not whether that is actually true or not, there is no point me wasting my time educating you.
And then finally you destroy your own credibility by presenting opinion as fact, and pretending to have access to information for which you are not cleared to present:
Better ESM: Prove it. Both ESM are classified, if you are having access to the claimed information for both, then sure, prove it by proving you have the security clearance for the information for each aircraft, and I’ll believe you. I’ll also report you to the MoD and DoD for violating your clearances by presenting restricted information in public forums.
Higher speed: As per ESMs
Better sensor fusion: As per ESMs
1. Explain to me what advantage Irst would give the F-22 that the advanced AESA and its advanced passive sensors would not?
2. @ blue wings ( its nice to see you back) The F-22 can operate as a mini AWAcs that what the entire article above was about. you use your ordnance and then extend networked sensors into areas that the are too dangerous for AWACS.
jessmo24PPP I will have to disagree with you. You must deal with the F-22 as an entire weapons system. yes the EF can do some nice high alpha, but IMO the F-22s thrust vectoring puts it a step above the EF. You must also consider that there are some missions the F-22,F-35, T-50 and J-X can do that the typhoon simply will not be able to do.Try fly a euro-fighter withing 100 miles of a S-300+ missile system and you will discover why. You will respond by saying the Typhoon can use cruise missiles. and I will respond by pointing out that with only 2-4 cruise missiles per typhoon now you need twice the aircraft to hit 1/2 the targets that a F-22, F-35 can hit. so to sum things up theses are the factors In the paradigm shift.
5th generations fighter advantages over legacy 4.5 generation
1. Stealth and survivability.
2. They are force multipliers. you need less jamming, less tanker assets, less sorties to hit more targets than legacy.
3. Sensor fusion and distribution.
I think that its only to the European aircraft industries detriment if they continue thinking that 5th generation is only marketing. They will wake up one day and every major nation will produce 5 gen + air frames, or team with others to procure them. Already, Japan,Russian, China, the U.S. and Iran have manned stealth fighters either in the design phase, or in testing
Are Mitsubishi, Sukkoi, Boeing, Lockheed, and the Chinese government
all inferior to dassault and Euro fighter? surly this stealth thing must be worth something if all of the worlds fighter companies except the 2 or 3 in Europe have designs for stealth.
These factors will significantly change the way we fight. Like I mentioned above why would you go to the merge from head on when you can stay out of his sensors? Haven’t you read about F-22s getting gun kills on unsuspecting F-16s?
jessmo24While Chinese contractors inside Iran might give the U.S. pause, Israel will not be deterd. Once they get F-35s nothing will stop them.
jessmo24No wing planform alignmemt, right angles from the forward aspect, no serpentine inlets.
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