Old shape,in post #18 you say that nations that routinely practice torture should be stopped at all costs.Why’s that,because you don’t object to torture in principle ?Secondly,would you restrict torture on TV to child killers or rapists ? Why would the life of a child be more valuable than that of someone ,say , my age ( a pensioner, dammit ! ) Wouldn’t it be fairer to apply it to ALL murderers and would you go along with that ?

Bee, no I didn’t. I stated that they carry it out based on a very flawed baseline.
My baseline (I’m sure I said it elsewhere) would be a true Court procedure, 12-0 jury, forensic proof etc.
Then, once proven guilty, invoke the death penalty for the scum.
Proven to be worthless in life, their death should be made useful.
Now, this is the point at which the “Anti old shape” brigade are stepping in, simply because I want to rejoice at the disposal of a worthless collection of cells that the gene pool can do without. So could the taxpayer.

BumbleBee may I answer that question obviously you would like Old Shape to have his opinion but here is mine.

ALL life is sacred but I am not an anti abortion pro life nut I would just like people to be able to live free from any kind of abuse etc.

And a childs life isnt worth more really everyone has a right to live a long and happy life but at least we have had a life. The tortured raped and killed child has had none or at least a very short interrupted life. In this case I belive the child has more right to live than any of us old gits. Me being a rather younger old git at 36.

I hope this answer the question.

Well, I don’t see all life as sacred. Deliberate taking life of a defenceless child automatically qualifies that person as low life. Less than a Rat. Totally worthless, probably even to his/her mother.

Once an opinion is formed upon the Death sentance, IMO it is an easy transition to televise it…not only to show by example but to potentially get a fund going for victims.
The death of Saddo in Iraq was allegedly filmed and put on the internet. The number of internet hits went into the dozens of millions. (Even though it was just a stupid porn advert).

I think we’re straying into two separate themes here. Are we looking at torture as a punisment? (A means of providing televisual entertainment to Old Shape and Merlin.) Or are we looking at torture as a means of extracting information?

If we are looking at the latter then yes, I think there is perhaps, as Rocketeer suggests, a time when the good of the many may be served by the use of torture on the few. Again, it should be the terror of torture which works rather than the torture itself although history has shown there are notable exceptions.

Old Shape and Merlin are advocating torture as a means of punishment and entertainment. There is no place for that. One would have to ask how far Merlin and Old Shape would go? It seems they are in agreement that criminals (sorry, scum) particularly rapists and murderers should die for their crimes. But it wouldn’t just stop there would it? The death sentence would gradually filter down their own personal scale of criminality. Would it be as far as bringing the death penalty for those guilty of, say, three convictions for burglary or assault? After all, these people are no good to society are they so why keep them? Or would they go so far as to introduce eugenics? After all, how productive is a child with profound and multiple learning disabilities going to be? They’re even more of a drain on the state than a criminal. Shall we dispose of those too? Why not just have a completely totalitarian state? You could model it on the likes of Iran, North Korea, Iraq under Saddam, Afghanistan under the Taliban, or better yet, Germany under the Nazi’s?

I’m all for punishment of those guilty of criminality. But it has to be tempered, where possible, with an attempt at rehabilitation. That is not always possible or advisable and therefore even I can envisage situations in which the death penalty might be utilised. Perhaps there are crimes which mean that the criminal, if proven guilty beyond any doubt, should forfeit their lives. But even that should be done as humanely as possible. You’re not just talking about loss of liberty but loss of life. That is enough.

It always makes me smile when you get people who say ‘I’d willingly hang/shoot/execute murderers and rapists.’ They won’t. And they never would. It’s just false bravado from behind the anonymity of a computer screen or over the top of a pint in a pub.

As for old Shape (I believe you are in the arms industry?), then perhaps it’s just the vicarious thrill he gets from killing by proxy? You give someone the means to do it though you won’t do it yourself.

Regards,

kev35

Kev, I would. With a fantastic pleasure. I’ve knocked seven bells out of a burglar I caught in my home (In the days when the Police thanked you for such) and I enjoyed every second of it, especially knowing I was right to do so.

No, old shape.

No way on earth are you seizing any kind of moral high ground here.

Your postings, in this thread and in others, indicate to me that you just want people to die at your behest while you watch from the comfort of your favourite armchair.
You’re looking for entertainment, not for justice.

No, I clearly stated I would be inflicting the pain on the scum.

Seeing as Old Shape also wants to nuke Iran because they torture and execute people on live TV, I wouldn’t take what he says too much to heart.

They torture and execute people based on a set of rules that change with the wind, and are mostly based on highly offensive religions. Not a good datum.

My way involves a pukka trial, a 12-0 jury and all the Forensic science possible. Once proven guilty, pill in the bucket is the minimum.

I can’t believe you’re serious,old shape.

Believe me, I’ve felt this way since the 80’s.

I wonder if a genuine ‘truth serum’ is within the reach of modern medical science.

If it were, would we be happy to see it used in serious criminal cases, or would its use constitute torture?

Great point. I’d go for that.

As for PMN, I’m afraid that you have gone emotional, starting to call my points as “Little”. It’s a massive debate, not little. My so-called emotion is the rationale of seeing the scum being constantly allowed to get away with it. Jail is no longer jail, no matter if they don’t feel the rain. Warm, fed, Sky TV, snooker / pool all at our expense.
Please point me at any part of my post(s) showing agression?

As for point (a) being the same thing, absolutely. I see the terrorist blown to oblivion by a gattling gun on a UK/US platform I think it’s a very good thing. One less to damage us. So, why on earth should I, or anybody else, not get the same gratification from seeing a child rapist/ killer being seen-off on the TV?
We are all driven by emotion to some extent, most decisions are emotionally based, unless it’s a topic with a finite conclusion….like a maths exam. So, why oh why does an emotion that is agin your emotion become wrong and reactionary?
Calling scum as scum is not an emotion. Criminal is too good a word for them. It’s just a collective nown for, scum.

I’m not talking about that. I want to see you rationally and entirely unemotionally explain to me, in depth, why you think broadcasting people dying is a good idea and how that would benefit society.

Paul

(a) It’s already done. We all watch the war on TV news. Some of the people dying there are innocent too. Some of the most watched YouTube/Liveleak vids are from the Gun cameras taking out the bad guys, in graphic detail.
(b) I do not, will not and cannot see the scum I mention as “People”.
(c) Based on the possible audience size, judging by (a), there is massive revenue to be made from such a programme. Revenue which would go a long way to healing/ helping the true victims of these scum.
(d) Society would actually feel a whole lot better about itself, knowing it was improving the gene pool by offing them.
(e) Most victims would feel a lot better. Some would lay gracious and turn to Church of course, but that’s their choice.
(f) They have to die, I think most people agree on that. So let it be an example.
(g) Society has got to turn on scum, almost daily we see / hear an event that shocks the most hardened Police officers.