RyukyuRhymerfor me, with out a doubt,
the Yak-141
followed by (in no order), the F-16XL, Shinden, Novi Avion, and the Mirage 4000
RyukyuRhymermy own opinion on this..
1. F-22
2. F-15E
3. Rafale
4. Typhoon
5. Su-30MKI
in 5 years?
1. F-22
2. Rafale
3. Typhoon
4. Gripen
5. Su-30MKM
RyukyuRhymerCheck out the news section, Tango’s latest post.
yet a new version of the F-16 being offered, this time with super cruise!
my personal opinion.
the MiG-35 will probably be unlikely. The MKI has taken quite some time for it to mature into its sophisticated and very international equipment and I believe, is still having some difficulties in integration. the LCA will also take quite a bit of time before it reaches numbers. Combined with recent odds between Russian and India over contracts I don’t think they can get the MiG-35 in time (will definitely need more time to fully develop and establish a production line).
For similar reasons I think any future planned version of the Gripen being offered will be considered.
Politics aside, the F-16 is probably the choice more fitting for India. They get that AESA radar they want, supercruise ability (if it actually works as claimed), and a decent A2G aircraft that can probably replace the Jaguars and MiG-27 as well.
RyukyuRhymerWhat do you think that if USA doesn’t give F-22 to the Japan will Japan buy PAK-FA or will they develop their own 5th generation aircraft.They said that if USA doesn’t give F22 they could buy it from a third country.Is it possible or at last will Japan goverment buy F-35.
PAK-FA is very unlikely. While Russian-Japanese relations have improved alot, they’ve yet to formalize a peace treaty to end the second world war. The dispute over the southern Kuril Islands is still quite serious and I do not know if you know.. but every single map here in Japan, includes the southern Kuril islands as Japanese.. (and some other maps even include southern Sakhalin).
Because of the financial burden of making a 5th generation fighter, I highly doubt Japan will do it alone, especially if they cannot export it. Domestic Japanese weapons are already expensive as it is.
RyukyuRhymerWrong, Japan has simply postponed its F-4 replacement program. The hope seems to be that in the meantime the US will change its mind on the Raptor. However a few more delays and the Japanese will be entering F-35 territory in terms of time scale.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20071217/92791912.html
U.S. ban forces Japan to modernize F-15 fighters
16:58 | 17/ 12/ 2007
Print version
TOKYO, December 17 (RIA Novosti) – Japan will be unable to purchases state-of-the-art U.S. fighter aircraft before 2010, and will prioritize instead the upgrading of the Air Force’s 40 F-15 Eagle jets, a Defense Ministry source said on Monday.
F-15 Eagle, an all-weather tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat, was developed for the U.S. Air Force, and first flew in July 1972.
The source confirmed that there had been an indefinite postponement in the delivery of the next-generation U.S. fighter jets, F-22A Raptor, whose combination of stealth, super-cruise speeds, maneuverability, and integrated avionics, coupled with improved supportability, represent an exponential leap in combat capabilities.
According to the daily Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper, the ministry was forced to drop plans to introduce state-of-the-art F-22 Raptor stealth fighters from the United States due to, in the main, U.S. doubts about Japan’s reliability in safeguarding military secrets.
The ministry had earlier pondered the possibility of buying Eurofighter Typhoon fighters – a highly agile Air Superiority and Air-to-Surface, whose multi-role/swing-role weapon system makes it the most capable front line fighter available.
The ministry’s ongoing buildup is focused on China’s strengthening military capabilities.
The paper also quoted military officials as saying that there was no sign that the United States would lift its virtual ban on the export of F-22s in the near future.
Ministry officials said that in order to ensure an advantage in air defense against China, the ASDF must have two squadrons totaling 40 modernized F-15s.
Japan is prohibited by its Constitution from using military force except in cases of self-defense.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20071217TDY02304.htm
ANALYSIS / F-15 upgrades face ministry bargain hunt
Kenji Yoshimura / Yomiuri Shimbun Staff Writer
The Defense Ministry, following an indefinite postponement in the delivery of next-generation U.S. fighter jets, has placed top priority on upgrading the Air Self-Defense Force’s 40 F-15 Eagle jets.
The ministry is going full-throttle to get the nod from the belt-tightening Finance Ministry through a cost-saving upgrade plan.
But recent procurement scandals in the Defense Ministry have added turbulence to defense buildup plans, which has spurred the ministry to try to improve its current mainstay F-15 fighters at the lowest possible costs, such as through lump-sum purchases of new components.
The ministry had to drop plans Saturday to introduce state-of-the-art F-22 Raptor stealth fighters from the United States under the current fiscal 2005-09 defense buildup program, due mainly to U.S. doubts about Japan’s reliability in keeping military secrets.
The ministry’s ongoing buildup is focused on China’s strengthening military capabilities.
Beijing has been raising its defense budget by more than 10 percent each year and is believed to have about 300 Sukhoi Su-27 fighters, the fourth-generation Russian-made rival of the F-15.
China’s fleet of Su-27s will most likely increase to about 500 within five years, considerably more than the Defense Ministry had previously anticipated, officials said.
Japan’s next jets will be fifth-generation fighters, which have high stealth capabilities to block radar detection, plus high-performance sensor systems.
There is no sign that the United States will lift its virtual ban on the export of F-22s in the near future, the officials said.
But the ministry’s plans to upgrade its F-15s also face a number of problems.
Ministry officials said that in order to ensure an advantage in air defense against China, the ASDF must have two squadrons totalling 40 modernized F-15s.
As improvements have already been made to eight of the F-15s, the remaining 32 should be upgraded as soon as possible, they noted.
As the Finance Ministry has been hard set against funding the F-15 improvements, the Defense Ministry has come out with a plan for purchasing necessary equipment through bulk purchase contracts instead of contracts for individual aircraft.
The lump-sum plan would trim the original improvement plan for the 32 fighters by about 20 billion yen, according to the Defense Ministry.
The Finance Ministry, however, remains wary of the planned upgrades, saying budgetary allocation for the planned lump-sum improvement contract would be high in its initial year, which would be fiscal 2008.
Adding to the ministry’s uphill task is the decline in public trust regarding procurement arrangements following the arrest last month of former Administrative Vice Defense Minister Takemasa Moriya on suspicion of taking procurement-related bribes.
The government has consequently talked of reforming the Defense Ministry under the direct leadership of Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda.
The Fukuda administration is facing the challenge of ensuring the nation’s steady defense buildup while regaining public confidence in defense procurement.
(Dec. 17, 2007)
perhaps I should’ve clarified a bit more.
They are opting out of any new aircraft purchases (for now) and opting to upgrade their F-15. My speculation (as stated in another thread) is that they will wait for things to change because ultimately, we want the F-22 and designing our own stealth fighter would be too costly
RyukyuRhymerJapan is likely to opt out of the Typhoon or any other new aircraft deals because they have decided to simply just update its F-15 fleet.
I did find these great 3-D impressions of a Saudi Typhoon on the other hand..
RyukyuRhymerThe Japanese have a project to develop a Gripen-sized stealth technology demonstrator at the cost of only 46.6 billion Yen, roughly 430 million US dollars. I suspect this figure only covers building the airframe and fitting it out with components developed under other budgets.
If this is the case indeed, making a small fighter-like technology demonstrator with off-the-shelf components would not be too expensive to try for an industrialized country like the Netherlands, I believe.
Cheers,
Sunho
If you seen the full scale model of the ShinShin (the stealth aircraft in question), it is certainly a bit bigger than a Gripen, and its questionable they will get far with that budget.
RyukyuRhymeryeah yeah more about the uniqueness of Japanese, why you can not understand is the grammar is not a structure as you think, languages like the English and Russian have different grammars, spanish and english have also different grammar and Urdu and portuguese also have a very different phonetics and grammar however all are related.
乾杯 干杯 this means in chinese Gambei or Cheers in japanese is Kampai 乾杯 かんぱい see the similarities
now water melon 西瓜 xī guā in Japanese is Suika 水瓜 【i hiragana すいか】
watermelon三 sān three; 3 in Chinese and 三 san in Japanese
九 jiu nine; 9 in Chinese and 九 in japanese 九(きゅう) kyu
Now why Teppen in Turkish and Japanese in tepen in japanese mean the same and can be understood as top of a mountain?
You can not refutate that despite Japanese has a very distant lenguistic relation with Chinese it does have words that are common to its origins in central Asia.
If you have some knowledge of semantics and phonetics you will know how sounds are related and can be turn in other languages throughout inflections of a sound.
Now if you do not want to see that politically Japan is allied to the US and China to Russia you can not see that basicly that is what makes impossible a Chinese-Japanese jet fighter
its funny how you easily dismiss grammar as a non issue, and attempt to use borrowed nouns and writing systems to prove your point. Notice how you only stick to grammar order rather than that Japanese use totally different particles, use of adverbs, etc.
oh btw
San is three in Japanese only in the Onyomi reading.. which is SUPPOSED to sound like Chinese because it the sound borrowed from Chinese.
Three is also “mitsu” in kunyomi, the NATIVE way Japanese pronounce it. It sounds nothing like Japanese.
In anycase, it seems like you really are intent on not wanting to research this issue on your own and are intent on following your own prejudices and ignorance. After looking at your other posts, you seem to enjoy arguing endlessly and ignorantly with just about every type of people, ethnicity and nationality in this forum. I won’t be bothered to follow the same path and waste my time arguing with some one who doesn’t do any research. Its like trying to teach multiplication to someone who refuses to learn how to add.
RyukyuRhymerMan it makes me laugh you simplistic idea of Japan, Japan is asian is not western, niether african or Latin american, it has not grammar very different from other asian languages as you claim,
As some one who speaks Japanese and lives in Japan, I feel I have some standing on how Japanese and Chinese languages are different :rolleyes:
I would like to see you prove that the grammar in Japanese and Chinese are even the same.
[quote]
In fact the Chinese and Japanese characters or Kanjies for Tokyo and Beijing are the same North capital for Beijing and Eastern capital for Tokyo this is the Kanji for Beijing 北京 this is the kanji for Tokyo 東京 [/B]
which simply reflect that Japan borrowed Chinese characters, but it does not prove at all how grammar is the same.
this word means interesting funny or Omoshiroi 面白い and the only reason why a Chinese would not understand it is simply because the last phonetic element of the word is a hiragana character for the letter i.
Right here you have revealed your total lack of knowledge on the Japanese and Chinese language. Even with out the i, the way these two characters are used are an example of how the Japanese sometimes use chinese characters very differently than the Chinese. In addition, the pronunciation used is native Japanese rather than the Chinese style pronunciation, reflecting different linguistic roots.
if you still need further proof
Linguistic
http://media.maps.com/magellan/images/worldlang.gif
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/languagefamilies.html
Genetic
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/kinnchii/W-MAP.gif
In anycase, this is my last reply on this subject because it has nothing to do with military programs and that you are simply too lazy to do a little research (just go look at Wikipedia), to see how Asian countries are different.
Why i am only saying is Japan and China can not cooperate now simply because both nations are military rivals and politically are not aligned, Japan is aligned to the US and China to Russia and Pakistan .
Also the Japanese are very worried about the Chinese military build up, the only reason why Japan and China do not cooperate is politically are not aligned however historically and culturally share a common origin.
which is utter nonsense. China, its neighbors, Japan and its neighbors, or the rest of Asia for that matter, have rivalries now and rivalries back then. Alliances and enemies change and will continue to change. Asians are no exceptions. Koreans may be resentful of Japan invading their country in the 19th-20th cnetury, but Japan and Korea fought a number of times before that. Korea and China have fought and allied with each other a number of times as well. It is also important to note that in ancient times, Japan was of relatively little importance to China as it had few things of value trading wise, and was often in frequent civil war with itself. China was far more interested in S.E Asia, contacts with India, and expanding into Central Asia.
RyukyuRhymerThe FC-1 and K-9 are comparable to the early Jaguar and Alpha jet programs, so they are in the begining.
the K-8 and the FC-1 are primarily designed by China with Pakistan’s involvement being primarily financial. the Jaguar had both British and French engines, British designed wings, and French designed landing gears. I don’t really know the extent of Pakistan’s involvement in the development of the FC-1 and K-8, so do tell if you can…
Japan is not different to China culturally niether ethnically, Usually Japanese view themselves as unique but under that disguise they are simply afraid of acknowledge their own asian identity and also because of a bit of arrogance.
You really need to study some more on Asian history and language. Yeah, they’re Asian, and Japan as well as many Asian countries adopted a number of elements of Chinese Culture, but they certainly are not Chinese. The Japanese language has totally different grammar and vocabulary. The same is true with Korean and Vietnamese, both of whom are more strongly influenced by China than Japan, but are not Chinese either. The Japanese, Chinese, Mongols, etc are all mongoloid but still slight physical differences that set them apart. But then again, you probably think all Asians look the same.
Japan has similar architecture, food, religion, writing system and ethically are the same race, China is even more asian because it has a more influential culture and has more intercultural exchanges with their neighbourghs.
Japan’s architecture is derived from a certain period of ancient China.. and the key word is derived.. meaning it has been modified. The writing system is not the same. China uses traditional and simplified scripts. Japan uses two of its own scripts that the Chinese cannot understand, and Chinese characters which are closer to tradtional. And even then, some of the ways the Japanese use these characters are different than how the Chinese would use them. For example, 面白い would probably not make sense to many Chinese.. even though it uses Chinese characters. who read it unless they are familiar with some Japanese. Japan’s religion is a mixture of Shinto (non Chinese) and Buddhism (similar to other E.Asian countries).. but the fact that both elements are mixed make it unique to Japan. Also what makes China more “Asian”? Malaysia, India, Pakistan, and Iran are also Asian and they are hardly anything like China, Japan, etc.
In anycase, I won’t be bothered explaining things that you should already know and could easily look up on the internet before spouting off your lack of knowledge on the issue. As stated before, your ideas of countries banding together due to cultural, ethnic, and linguistic reasons are absurd and aren’t worth debating over. By your logic, Britain and Russia should be paired together because they’re both European, Christian, and speak Indo-European languages. In addition, your logic of countries having to work with each other because they adopted cultural elements of another is equally absurd. In the past many countries adopted cultural elements of China, Persia, Rome..etc but in this modern day and age.. many countries, especially in Asia (that includes China, Japan, Korea, India) etc.. have adopted American and European cultural elements.. from words in their vocabulary, clothing style, choice of government, food, etc. so do you expect them to owe America or Europe something? get real.
Rudder of Boeing 787 made in Chinahttp://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/6214104.html
The Japanese have been in discussions at this point with AVIC I facilities,” says Boeing’s Cornelius. “We have not seen them consummate any contracts yet, but there are discussions under way to look at taking on some subcontract work” for the 787 and 777, and Japan is considering China for the 777 because the production rate on the aircraft is increasing, he adds.
http://www.sbac.co.uk/community/cms/content/preview/news_item_view.asp?i=14610&t=0
[/quote]
and in the end, the Boeing is an American aircraft made for the civilian market. talk about comparing apples to oranges.
RyukyuRhymerThe creation of a Asian jet program does exist in the form of the FC-1 and several other programs, however the leader in Asia of such programs is China.
The Chinese and japanese aeorspace do work togather in civil programs, but under american leadership.
Asia is quit homogeneous, Japanese, Chinese and Koreans share a very common culture, their nationalisms are in reality ignorance of the common culture, ethnicity and civilization they share, they can not put togather a common program because western influence is strong enough to eliminate that possibility and China has not been seen yet as a benign power.
In Asia China will end up becoming the glue of a panasian civilization like always it has been.
It is just a matter of time
the FC-1 cannot be compared to multinational projects like the Tornado or the Typhoon. Pakistan may have contributed half (or perhaps even more) of the funding, but much of the development itself was primarily done by the Chinese aviation industry.
Japan, Korean and Chinese cultures may be similar (more so between Korea, Vietnam and China than Japan).. but ethnically they are actually not the same, even the Chinese themselves are not homogeneous, but rather a mixture of varying groups that include those who became Sinicized. However arguing that countries would come together to develop military weapons due to similar culture and ethnic ties is totally idealistic.
Countries come together to develop military weapons out of political and/or economic priorities, not cultural. the FC-1 is between two countries that have very little in common culturally and ethnically, but much in common strategically (common rival in India).
Even within Europe, Italy has often worked together with Germany.. while some here often like to lump all Westerners as the same.. Italy and Germany are different culturally, linguistically (being different sub groups of Indo European), and ethnically.. but have worked together due to the same common enemies (Warsaw Pact).
When applied to Asia, there are many divergent views on foreign policies between Asian countries.
RyukyuRhymerNot when there’s oil deposits underneath these “little rocks”.
Plus these islands have political and strategic value.
Asia is composed of countries with total disparity in size, wealth and influence. Working on equal terms is just about impossible.
And do you know anything of maritime disputes outside of Asia? They are also over little rocks that contain energy deposits and strategic waterways but you often don’t see its citizens or government react the same way Asian governments do.
RyukyuRhymerthanks for the response, and I agree that the F-15E surely is the “definition” of a self escorting fighter..
but is it actually practical when the enemy throws decent fighters or SAMs?
For example, it can carry bombs and missiles to the target.. but will it still be able to move the same when some formidable enemies appear?
or will it have to dump its ordinance in order to gain some manouverability.. which will allow it to challenge the enemy aircraft.. but fail in its goals to bomb whatever target..
of course, for the USAF at least, there will probably be many scenarios where there will be plenty of other fighters to protect them.. but in cases where its just these self escorting fighters..
RyukyuRhymerIf you’re thinking of an Asian Fighter in the same framework as the Eurofighter.. then a comparison cannot be made.
the Eurofighter was intended for use by several W.European countries to counter the threat of new Soviet Aircraft that appeared in the 80s. It isn’t really anything cultural or historic, but political and the same common threat.
This framework cannot be applied to Asia as everyone has different “enemies”.
In addition many countries in Asia are still struggling to make certain key components that the Europeans are already capable of making.. i.e a modern engine and modern radar. Only China, India, Iran, Korea, and Japan have an aviation industry of some extent and I cannot really see any of them really teaming up with each other, but instead, with companies outside of the region
of course this can and will probably change over time and the political situation may change..
but Asians are also quite nationalistic… disputes over little rocks which usually go unnoticed by Europeans in their own disputes.. are very explosive in countries like China, Korea, Vietnam, etc. I feel that such nationalism will continue to create much distrust between neighbors preventing them from seriously going anywhere on a major military project together.
RyukyuRhymerMiG-35: AESA radar, upgraded engines, and outstanding weapons. but never tested or tried in the real world. one of my favourites because it’s an upgraded MiG-29 airframe, but will it be up to par with others??
The question is.. how much of it is really developed? It would seem that MiG would put much of its resources to make one display model of what they would like to make.. but would require the customer to help fund the continued development of these new features.. I guess in some ways similar to the MKI. How long would it take for MiG to work them out and then get these aircraft delivered to the IAF? It certainly took the MKI quite some time. Is India willing to make the wait?
I agree with earlier sentiments here.. more Sukhois and LCAs would’ve made more sense.
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