Hi Chris

I will leave aside your comments on the “Value” of recovered material, as my views on this are well known. But one point I would like to raise re your project is that of obtaining permits to excavate aircraft that fall into your stated area of interest, in which crew members have lost their lives.

We all know that during wartime many recoveries were carried out in less than ideal circumstances and often their was little record keeping or apparent accountability with regard to ensuring human remains were fully recovered. However post WW2 there seems to have been a concerted effort on the part of the MOD to sort out this situation and they considerbly tightened up procedures. Of course though due to the nature of an aircraft crash – particulalrly a higher speed post-war crash, this did not neccesarily mean they found any more of the unfortunate airmen involved. – They did, however, in most cases, record just what they did or did’nt find! 😮

Now these records are available to the PMA and they do indeed check all available records when considering a permit application (as they should!) and this means that they will know know exactly what was found (or not) and the fact that an airman has a know and located grave is no longer sufficient proof of his recovery for the purpose of issuing a permit…..As we found out when applying to recover DH Hornet F. Mk1 PX274, which crashed at Stacksteads near Bacup on 22.12.47.

This of course means that many aircraft in your chosen area of interest, that would have been perfectly viable to consider excavating had they been wartime crashes, are likely to be denied to you when it comes to obtaining the required permit – Not that there is any evidence that those parts listed as un-recovered actually remain at the crash site – In all likelihood they were totally destoyed and certainly the post war recoveries tended to be more thorough in respect to human remains as well, but in our experience just as likely to consign useless smashed up equipment back into the hole!

But the MOD now have “proof” that remains were not recovered and they seem to be reluctant (perhaps rightly? perhaps conveniently? depending on your view) to accept that those remains are unlikely to still be present and therefore under the terms of the 1986 Act, they will deny permission to excavate, unless, of course, you can put forward a valid reason why you should proceed! – Good Luck! 🙁 and Apologies for another “Negative” response!

Hi Nick,

I fully agree with you, however, the MOD dont allways clean up very well,
even in later years, and certainly in the early 50s when air incidents were still quite common,
I dont really look at anything post 1965 anyway bcause of that reason,
I think it depends on the time of year of the crash , and how thorough the investigation, there is one near me (a sea hawk) that the pilot was involontarilly ejected, he survived with a broken ankle, they cleaned the mess up, but threw most of it into the 20ft crator, the old SWARG done a dig in the mid 80s when i was a nipper of Vampire UF300, and found loads, that had been thrown into a hole, and last year whilst visiting a friend , I visited a farm in the north east, where Vulcan XM610 crashed as late as 1971,
it was late so we couldnt do anything but the farmer was still furious about the incident, he said he was never compensated enough for the brand new cow shed the vulcan had demolished, the MOD had left so much wreckage still in his field that he to this day still cannot use it, because parts kept damaging his machinery, they left a engine there, and its still there to this day, he walked us across the field , and you could see bits an pieces ,
and as i went he gave me a turbine blade, he had a bucket of them which he had picked up over the years,,Up to a couple of years ago, he had a Huge pile of wreckage that he weighed in to the scrap man, the vulcan has caused him problems ever since it crashed ,
so from first hand experiance i know the Mod dont allway act as thorough as they would like too, for what ever reason,
I think since the 1970s things are VERY much different ,and they have proper investigations and enquiries,but i think “Pre” 1970s there was very little in the way of Recovery (sometimes) , and especailly when the aircraft has been abandoned before the crash, “or ” there is no Large ordnance that needs to be recovered,
I hope this puts a positive side to (some) jet age recoveries,
best regards
Chris C
Ex S.W.A.R.G,(defunked)
now starting “CWARG” (hopefully)

“cold War Aircraft Recovery Group !!

OK Guys, you win,
i take your Valid points,

to stop any confusion ,i will change it all tonight after work, if there s no objections, to naming it the C.W.A.R.G.

incidentally is there any of you in the south west being remotely interested in this ??
cheers
Chris 🙂

Yes ive heard of the Jet age “Preservation” society, (staverton) and a real good bunch they are too, but I dont believe that theres a jet age “Recovery ” group in the UK, especailly specificaly dealing wth Post war Aviation Archaeology ??

Correct me if i am wrong ??