Spifire identity

Interesting thread – No its definitely NOT BL585 – we spent five years pinning that one down & the surface remains amounted to one “cooked” .303 case and three aluminium cornflakes – the site had been levelled & the hollow filled in when a hedge had been removed 20-30 years before. Also BL688 can be ruled out – we found that one too – in the next field to the one everyone else had looked in!

Tatton – I think you should PM Alan who has already replied on here – I think he is almost undoubtedly your best bet at tracking this one down – you just need to present it to him as a challenge – like I do! If you want to investigate the site further please get in touch (PM me or Alan or via website email – see link below) as we can advise + we have the deep seeking equipment, including a modern Ferex magnetometer & would strongly suggest the involvement of a local group rather than one from outside the area.

Re the “cooked” rounds – I concur with TT + having 25+ years experience of AA I have seen all manner of damage to cartridge case – including (very rarely) melting! .50s do seem to take quite a lot of heat / damage before exploding and I too have seen some spectacular damage to these including neighbouring rounds being driven right through each other without going off! Re spitfireman’s comment, I would say that cooked rounds can often have the cap intact as they have blown inwards. 20mm seem to be particularly prone to impact damage as the collar that supports the projectile is very thin (it actually balloons in the chamber slightly to form a seal on firing – hence you can’t secure heads into fired shell cases). I have found full drums of 20mm with every single head detached! On one Seafire site our metal detector specialist found dozens of 20mm cases spread across two fields & not a single head. Though all were unfired – I made him change the discriminator settings on his Minelab Explorer & go over the area again – virtually the same number of heads this time! Luckily all ball rounds – watch out for HE 20mm heads – the mercury fulminate in the detonators on them degrades badly making them very sensitive and potentially very dangerous.

AM Whistle

We recovered one of the “1st pattern” whistle on a dig a few years ago – The aircraft crashed in 1944. See Firefly Z1906photo at bottom of the page. It was one of thelast finds, having been pressed into the baked clay underlying the wreckage layer – after a good soaking to get the clay out it worked perfectly!

Hi Cees

I am in contact with David – he is away from his computer hence the lack or a reply to your email – I know he is very keen to communicate with you – don’t worry!

If you can email me your number maybe I can pass it onto him and he can phone you.

Although I prefer not to comment on other peoples projects, he continues to make progress with the cockpit rebuild and has just sent out another of his Albemarle Project newsletters – the project is very much alive and kicking.

Cheers

Hi – I was not inferring that there had been no progress – I simply have not heard of any – I see why you do not comment on other peoples projects now – its so easy for your comments to be quoted & it looks like you are putting them down.

I know David well & can say his enthusiasm for the project is certainly genuine – he saved the cockpit sections when the museum closed and no-one else showed any interest – much of the other Albermarle material they had ended up being scrapped – it was not easy for him as he really didnt have the room & I helped him transport and shoe-horn the pieces into his tandem garage & dismantle (un-bolt) the second section to fit it under cover. I do know he has spent a lot of time gathering smaller parts and obtaining copies of any drawings available, though I understand that the lack of any remains of the outer shell of the cockpit section is a major problem. I did hear that his recent foray to the quarry 😀 yielded subtantial parts of the fuselage loading door -which I know he was quite exited about! 🙂

By charging you can only be refering to buying books.

Hi Alan

Good to hear from you – Hope your trip was productive! 😉 While I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, as a professional Librarian, I do have one comment on this :p If you you don’t want to fork out for the book – Use your local Library!!! 😮 Surely even Sean cannot begrudge 50p to request a book – I am sure we could all recommend a few to him! :dev2:

HGWs

Hi Don

Sorry to disagree on this occasion :p, but I really can’t see scrap values being a motive for disappearing HGW sites in the UK. Also even recent attempts by unknown individuals to profit from certain Peak District wrecks through selling artefacts they have removed on ebay have proved a flop – few if any sold, probably as the collectors who might have been interested already have their own bits they took years ago 🙁 plus they were not connected with any famous individual or action – Hopefully interest in buying often dubiously provenanced shapeless scraps of metal is waning?:mad:

True in the past scrap was a motive & a lot of the easier to access sites were lost long before historic interest in these sites was thought of – To many they were (and to a few, still are) unsightly blots on the landscape. Even on our recent excavation of VV602 at Wildboarclough, the farmer from the neighbouring farm we met was telling me that a tail boom from the Vampire lay on his land until about three years ago, when it vanished – he blamed scrap dealers as it was visible from the track leading to his farm & personally I am inclined to agree, as it would have disappeared long before if it had been of interest to enthusiasts! The quantities needed to make scrap recovery worthwhile would IMO need vehicular access – helicopter removal would I think be cost prohibitive.:eek:

The biggest danger to these sites is Ignorance (IMO) – curious passers-by taking souveniers, which once shown to a few friends, lose their appeal & are consigned to sheds or even the dustbin. For some the interest even wanes long before that, as trails of abandoned pieces leading back from crash sites towards nearby roads testifies in some cases. As Andy points out info on the whereabouts of these sites has been in the public domain for many years & there is nothing we can do about that, as those individuals have as much right to visit the as we have – However much we may disagree with their actions.

I feel the only chance of there being something left for visitors to see in the future (and even then corrosion + erosion mean these sites have a limited time left anyway) is to try to educate people that there actions may at least be disrespectful & selfish & at worst illegal. Don’t get me wrong, I still feel that under the right circumstances the recovery of material from HGW sites may be warranted, but the state of many of the engines and larger pieces I have seen, makes it unlikely there would be much purpose in recovering them and perhaps most are best left as memorials.

What I do find disturbing is the apparent lack of any knowledge of the legal protection afforded to HGW sites, by the MOD, the National Parks Authorities and the National Trust, demonstrated on some these Blogs / Sites. Coupled with the double standards of decrying any disturbance they find at sites, Whilst happily admitting to and even photographing themselves metal detecting on them!

Respect.

Of course I hope everyone would agree with me , this would be nothing to do with aviation archaeology , more the case of recovering a Missing Pilot,something that should have been done many years ago

Hi Chris – Don’t worry on that score – I don’t think there is anyone connected with this hobby who would see it any other way – where missing aircrew or human remains are concerned all other interests give way.

Yes this should have been dealt with officially and even if recovery difficulties were an issue at the time, then with todays equipment this is no longer likely to be a problem – some form of mechanism should be in place to deal with it now – But we are all realists and know the MODs stance on this 🙁

Here goes!

Oh what the heck! – I may as well join in 😀 How about this effort?

Harlech P-38

Had a reply from TIGHAR explaining what is going on a few weeks ago – sounds like they are taking things slowly & getting everything in place before they go ahead – Have to agree that it sound like a good idea – look at what happened to the Calais Spitfire with a rushed recovery job 🙁

As for the chap who started it all – Had no replies to my emails whatsoever 🙁