N.WotherspoonThere is a group who are local to me, who investigate the crashes rather than dig up the rememnants on a large scale. -They mix large amounts of research and hunting with small amounts of digging.
Good to see some well considered comments on this thread – Lindy’s lad – I think most responcible groups follow a similar pattern – we only aim to actually physically investigate a handfull of sites and this is often only to pinpoint, record and photograph them – one actual dig a year is not uncommon & most of our activity is pure research, interviewing witnesses (sadly a decreasing proportion), answering emails and dealing with enquiries from other researchers and relatives etc.
We also, when possible, investigate / record old airfields and other related structures in our area. As OneEighthBit asks – Yes we consider this Aviation Archaeology too. Few if any of these sites have any listed building status or protection and are dissapearing fast as land for development is in short supply. We have seen the destruction of most of the remaining structures at Burtonwood and even what we thought was a relatively safe survivor – the tank farm at Burscough was recently dug out at great expense, so the site could be built on. Finds tend not to be high on the agenda when looking at these sites, but should we see anything moveable that requires saving we will do our best!
N.WotherspoonSorry to rant, Ian.
No apology reqd Ian – Well said!
Have been watching this thread develop & keeping quiet up to now (listens for the collective sighs of relief! :p) as also thought it likely to degenerate into a slanging match – We all know why we have taken up this hobby and what the sacrifices made by those involved in the incidents we research mean to us. Those who are not involved are unlikely to appreciate what it is like to uncover such history – Yes it is a buzz, but there are responcibilities that come with it.
N.WotherspoonThanks again Jeff – Re-reading the pilot’s orginal account, I note that the un-named “Chief Ground Engineer” is given the rank of lieutenant, so this would be 1st Lt Laurence E Tracy, especially if GCE is just a different order of the terms – anyone know the proper designations for ground engineers in the USAAF was?
Thanks also to Graham – this certainly looks a convincing case for this being the other survivor – I think a letter to the address given is in order, so will get on to that & let you know if any response.
Dave Earl made contact with the pilot several years ago, which is where the photo of him on my site came from. Though I understand that his account of the accident was no different than that published in the 70s & no further details of the others aboard were given – I think it was still very much a traumatic memory for him.
N.WotherspoonHi Nick,
Losses of the US 8th & 9thAir Forces Vol 2, gives the crew as:
2Lt Delbert G Harris jr
Lt MacDonald1Lt Laurence E Tracy (killed)
S/Sgt Thomas Kristin (killed)
T/Sgt LB Woodall (killed)
Mr William H Killough (killed)All originally buried at Brookwood, Mr Killough now interred at Madingley, the other returned to the US
Jeff
Hi again Jeff – I am assuming T/Sgt LB Woodall was the engineer on the flight and the others the three passengers – certainly Kristin and Killough don’t appear to have been aircrew – Just did a quick check & Kristin is at Madingley too – one of our members will be visiting soon, so will pay our respects to these two – Once agin many thanks for looking that up – contemplating buying the two vols now!
N.WotherspoonThanks Jeff – I have been trying to get hold of Vol 2 for a while – UK Inter library loan system only has Vol 1 listed – which I obtained for loan, But came back no locations in UK for Vol 2 twice 🙁 – I always try to go through new works like this – obviously 99% of the stuf I already have , but there are always one or two that I have missed. Vol 1 had a local P-38 that I had never heard of 🙂
N.WotherspoonCatalina wing recovered
Found two more news articles:
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Crashed-wartime-flying-boat39s-wing.4090757.jp
http://www.mbmclub.com/auto/newsdesk/20080419185812mbmnews.html
The Lerwick Prop I mentioned was trawled up near Kerrera too – I did have a probable id for it somewhere & spoke to a veteran who identified the prop as definitely being Lerwick & recalled the crash – the bulk of it was recovered at the time in order to retrieve the bodies of casualties.
N.WotherspoonLerwick at Oban!
Interesting find – I know many divers have looked for flying boat wreckage off Oban, but relatively little has been found? or should that be admitted to!
Many many years ago I obtained legal title to a Saro Lerwick propellor trawled up off Oban – I did this in good faith on behalf of the Pennine Aviation Museum group who I was a member of at the time – However despite their apparent enthusiasm for the relic and various promises, they never collected it and a couple of years later I spotted that it was still languishing in the CalMac shed on the wharf – I don’t know what became of it when these sheds were demolished 🙁 I tried to alert several groups to it at the time, but none seemed interested & several emails to the small museum concern at Oban asking if they knew what became of it have all gone un-answered.
As this was probably the only Lerwick relic in existance I would still be keen to hear if anyone saved it – I have no intention of claiming it – as I pointed out to the Oban group – but I suspect they thought otherwise?
N.WotherspoonLytham St Annes
Source: Boot, Henry . – Gifts of war : Spitfires and other presentation aircraft in two world wars / . – Tonbridge : Air-Britain (Historians), 2005 . – 0851302483 – assume his main sources were RAF Forms 78. 1180 & CWGC.
Lytham St Annes was a MkVb, Serial No. W3644 bought with a donation of £6000 presented in April 1941 & was taken on charge at No. 6 M.U. on 16 July 1941. Sent to Air Service Training at Hamble on 1 Aug 1941 for repairs, these being completed 27 Sept & delivered to No. 6 M.U. Brize Norton 3 days later. Sent to No. 1 Civilain Repair Unit at Cowley on 24 Oct & awaiting collection on 1 Feb. 1942. Flown to No. 37 M.U. Burtonwood on 11th Feb & allocated to No. 19 Squadron on 16 Apr – unit flying Ramrod & Rhubarb ops from Hutton Cranswick. On 23 June W3644 was shot down by Fw 190s of JG2 & crashed into sea south of Star Point. Its pilot – 20 year old Sgt A.L. Ridings 1058734 of Middleton, Lancs. is commemorated on Panel 92 of the Runnymede memorial.
This book also has a photo of the “artwork” on W3644 – source quoted as IWM Ref. HU88780.
N.WotherspoonOf course – one has to ask….
Any news on the P38 up in Wales, thought that must have been dragged out by now!
FB
Still completely buried in the sand, I heard very recently + they are in no rush as it has been there 60+ years already & is protected again for now. Think the points already raised here re conservation once uncovered are being considered in depth before they go ahead
N.WotherspoonProblem is , It will be predomanantly Jet, but lets not forget the Hornets,Lincolns,Mossie’s,Beaufighter target tugs,Baliol,Sea Furys,Tempests, the list is endless,so i wont be “Only ” looking at jets,but aircraft from that “Age”
So as you can see, It needs to be something to cover the whole period of
1946 to 1975, and include Jet and Prop aircraft,:)
Hi Chris
I will leave aside your comments on the “Value” of recovered material, as my views on this are well known. But one point I would like to raise re your project is that of obtaining permits to excavate aircraft that fall into your stated area of interest, in which crew members have lost their lives.
We all know that during wartime many recoveries were carried out in less than ideal circumstances and often their was little record keeping or apparent accountability with regard to ensuring human remains were fully recovered. However post WW2 there seems to have been a concerted effort on the part of the MOD to sort out this situation and they considerbly tightened up procedures. Of course though due to the nature of an aircraft crash – particulalrly a higher speed post-war crash, this did not neccesarily mean they found any more of the unfortunate airmen involved. – They did, however, in most cases, record just what they did or did’nt find! 😮
Now these records are available to the PMA and they do indeed check all available records when considering a permit application (as they should!) and this means that they will know know exactly what was found (or not) and the fact that an airman has a know and located grave is no longer sufficient proof of his recovery for the purpose of issuing a permit…..As we found out when applying to recover DH Hornet F. Mk1 PX274, which crashed at Stacksteads near Bacup on 22.12.47.
This of course means that many aircraft in your chosen area of interest, that would have been perfectly viable to consider excavating had they been wartime crashes, are likely to be denied to you when it comes to obtaining the required permit – Not that there is any evidence that those parts listed as un-recovered actually remain at the crash site – In all likelihood they were totally destoyed and certainly the post war recoveries tended to be more thorough in respect to human remains as well, but in our experience just as likely to consign useless smashed up equipment back into the hole!
But the MOD now have “proof” that remains were not recovered and they seem to be reluctant (perhaps rightly? perhaps conveniently? depending on your view) to accept that those remains are unlikely to still be present and therefore under the terms of the 1986 Act, they will deny permission to excavate, unless, of course, you can put forward a valid reason why you should proceed! – Good Luck! 🙁 and Apologies for another “Negative” response!
N.WotherspoonSaw the Dak on Sunday (18th) came in low and slow over the Gisburn carboot sale (Lancs/Yorks border) at about 10.00 – Saw it coming in from a distance and recognised the profile 🙂 but was surprised to see it apparently reduce altitude as it approached – Those pilot’s obviously can’t resist a crowd 😀
Was much appreciated and everyone stopped what they were doing to watch – anyone fill me in on where it had been / was going?
N.Wotherspooncanadian airforce in the uk? all these aircraft are canadian airforce, im pretty sure that the chap in white is stood next to a CF100. wouldnt they have been flown home to be scrapped?
Many years ago I purchased an MBEU seat from a scrapyard at Stone in Staffs. I was only a teenager & it was about the biggest piece I could get for the few pounds that I had at the time! 😀 I recall writing off to Martin Baker giving them the serial numbers hoping they would identify which aircraft it came from – I was convinced it was from a Lightning as two fuselages lay nearby – Back came a nice letter and free book on the development of ejection seats. They explained they could not attribute a seat to an individual aircraft, but could positively tell me that my seat was from a CF100 Canuck 😮 Often wondered how on earth it ended up there! :confused:
N.WotherspoonWent the day well?
Sounds like a good day had by all 😀 Really sorry I missed it 🙁 – the invite was still much appreciated and I really would have rather been there than surrounded by screaming kids! But duty called! :rolleyes:
N.WotherspoonIf it was a WWII bomb, that has been in the sea all these years, one might have expected there to be a little more corrosion?. John.
According to BBC report: “The bomb was unearthed early on Monday morning by a contractor working on the area’s sea defences”.
Obviously again we are relying on what a journalist chooses to report 😮 But this would seem to indicate it was buried, rather than washed up – Hence the remarkably rust-free condition – either way I wouldnt want to be the one to be playing with it! 😀
N.WotherspoonThe Baliol and Firefly are now on mobile frames, see pics.
See – I Knew those trolley wheels would be useful!!! 😀 & I can see why you wanted my Firefly tail fin now as well! 🙂 Starting to look like a plane again – or at least potentially one to the average museum visitor, which is what counts!
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