Legless – Who me?!!!

Perhaps TimeTeam could do a dig in “Nick’s” garden for other aviation esoterica related to legless aces who allegedly lurked about in Liverpool? 😀

Yes I can see it now….Location: Nick’s garden… Tony speaks: ….and you think his Me109 glided this far after he bailed out? 50 miles is a long way you know! Nick replies: Well it must be true… here’s the canopy I found used as a cloche when we moved in (quickly hides the eBay invoice taped to it):dev2:

Now I do have an old MG in the garage, hand painted RAF blue and reputedly formerly belonging to a well know RAF officer – I am sure with a bit of constructive research (such as many eBay sellers seem to be experts at), a suitable provenance could be arranged! 😮

I also have lots of pots of paint!!! :dev2:

Chivalry?

Wasn’t there a DH Dragon reported as being shot down by a HeIII off Cornwall – not really combat I know, but certainly counts as unusual – If I recall corectly the German crew then radioed a distress call on behalf of their victim – Conscience perhaps? or an attempt at WW1 style chivalry? In the end I don’t think it helped them much as nothing was ever found? 🙁

Deactivation the easy way?

Did the EOD team really blow up the unloaded .50 cals and a very rare remotely controlled turret ???:eek:

Er Yes! 🙁 – We had reservations about EOD being on site for the dig, having heard horror stories from others – However it was compulsory for the Filming peoples insurance + we did have rather a lot of people on site who did not really know what they were doing!!! 😉 so perhaps it was a wise precaution.

We had discussed with TT the liklihood of guns turning up and obviously that we would want to keep them! So we arranged for a gunsmith with the appropriate section clearance to take any that were found and deac them – It was understood when EOD took the guns into their custody that they were going to check them for ammunition and deliver them for deactivation – However it seems that whilst the commanding officer was on leave, some unknown member of EOD took it upon themselves to complete both tasks the easy way – with semtex! 😡

The shattered remains were then delivered back to the museum – breech frames blown apart, one gun blown in two and minus several major parts of the guns and most of the turret – probably as the bits flew too far to warrant picking them up 🙁

MOD taking action !!!

Nick – if the MOD are going to be even handed on this, and if the dig was post August 1986, (was it?) then they ought to be pressed to pursue the farmer:

a) for excavating it without a licence
b) retaining Crown property without authority and without submitting the PMRA returns pro-forma

They can’t have it both ways….ie expect to pursue or prosecute wreck recovery organisations for indiscretions but turn a blind eye to farmers or landowners. The law applies equally to them, bizarre though it may sound. They ALSO need a licence.

😉

Andy Saunders

Hi Andy – Yes it was post 1986 – PAM had a licence – I was there for my detecting equipment and knowledege of the use of it to locate the engines – to my knowledge the forms were passed on, but that was the end of it – He had always known the plane was there, but IMO wanted it confirming and locating for him, so he didnt have to dig half his field up – probably the only reason he gave consent – again IMO – The two engines, U/C legs and props are still in his barn – along with a major part of a Meteor (if I recall correctly) that he he excavated from a neighbouring farm, after it was uncovered during drainage work – NO OFFICIAL ACTION WHATSOEVER WAS EVER TAKEN as far as I am aware to date.

Where are all the Digs?

Perhaps it’s me, but important though all this discussion is, the start of the thread was an enquiry about current “dig” activity. Given that I responded with news about a Mosquito in Milton Keynes, I am surprised (well, not THAT surprised), that there has been absolutely nor response to that at all. Perhaps you all knew about it already?

I think Steve that it has become pretty evident that the main problem is not that there are not any digs taking place (& no I have’nt heard about the Mossie – please do tell – with pics if poss!) but that we have all become very guarded and no-one is getting to hear what is going on.

From the start when I put together my group, I wanted to publish the results of what we had researched and share the knowledge and the experiences with others. To this end I started my website at about that time and the feedback I have had from it has been tremendous, putting me in touch with all sorts of people conected with those who were involved in the incidents that I had researched.

However the whole hobby has become dulled (for me) by all this “changing goalposts” as Andy puts it. I have found myself being reluctant to publish material on my website and becoming preoccupied with paperwork – one permit for a very low key recovery last year took 8 months to obtain and was initially refused outright. Another simply to collect surface remains from a HGW site took 10 months – largely due to the County Archaeologist / SMR registrar – he holds both posts and seems to have decicded that if has been consulted by the MOD, then he has the authority to impsose any conditions he likes – in the end he admitted that he had not even read my 2 page project proposal – though he had sent me a letter stating that in his opinion it was not up to the required standard 😡 He then withdrew his objection and I had a permit in a week – just in time for the shooting season – so that’s that until February – to be honest I would be surprised if the artefacts are even still there!

The latest development has been that I (and others) have received an email from an MOD official based at Catterick, who is assessing the performance and response of the SMRs!!! – I am waitng to calm down before responding! :diablo:

And that’s not evening mentioning the member of Lancs constabulary who decided that I had illegally removed a weapon from a crash site – as my permit did not give me authority to do so and therefore I had committed an arrestable offence + was in possesion of a section 5 firearm – oh what fun I had with that one 🙁 before the inspecting officer came back off leave and sanity finally prevailed – It was me who was reporting the damn thing to them in the first place.

Helpful???

Maybe aviation archaeology in the UK would be taken more seriously if those involved acted in a more responsible manner,a start would be a database of recovered wreckage giving details of who has what and from which sites.

Of course it dosen’t help when there are those who will purposely dig sites known to contain human remains….

As far as I am concerned Aviation Archaeology is my HOBBY- not a profession and I have yet to hear of anyone getting paid for this activity – let alone cash strapped County archaeologists wishing to spend their meagre excavation funding on it.

I, like most I know in this HOBBY, do keep records and carry out detailed research – indeed to obtain ownership of the recovered items you have to provide details to the MOD – therefore they DO have records of much of what has been recovered, from where and by whom! Perhaps you should ask them to share this information?

I would dearly love the luxury of full professional archeaological recording of my digs, perhaps with nice scale drawings of all of the millions of aluminium cornflakes? However I spend much of my time directing the excavator operator and ensuring that no-one is at risk from the machinery we use or that any excavation is becoming unstable, not to mention keeping an eye on spectators who may be edging too close to an open hole (or clearing off with finds!). Sometimes I even get time to assist lifting the odd artefact.

We try to designate at least one person to photograph and/or video a dig and often make sketches of the attitude of an artefact before lifting – such as a gun – as this gives clues as to the final moments of the flight -again I expect such activity is pretty generally accepted by all. All this goes into my individual incident files and summary reports are made for the county archaeologist and English Heritage via BAAC – WHEN I GET THE SPARE TIME!

Obviously garry you are very well informed on this issue – I could take your comments as a personal insult, as they seem to be directed at the hobby as a whole – But I won’t as I am always prepared to give the benefit of doubt – unlike you it seems?

OK Rant Over! – That should get some discussion going! :dev2:

Do I understand that correctly, Nick? Over two years and the MOD have not dealt with your returns or formally transferred ownership???? Andy Saunders

Hi Andy – bit under two years – around 18 months to be exact – but yes that is correct 🙁

A man on this site has recently written a book about the wrecks he has investigated… Very good it is too..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-West-Aircraft-Wrecks-Insights-Dramatic/dp/1844154785/sr=8-1/qid=1168945826/ref=sr_1_1/203-6083573-9537508?ie=UTF8&s=books

PS. Nick thanks for the list of the 2000 incidents at the back – Will keep me busy for months!!!

Hi Paul

Your welcome 🙂 though the details are brief and I had a lot of trouble editing and combining various excel files that I had the info stored on – despite the odd duplicate and red herrings, such as aircraft that took off from or were travelling to rather than crashed in the North West, it should give anyone new to research a good starting point – which was the idea.

As for news of digs, yes we have several in the pipeline – some new and a few, as Andy says, re-digs of old sites. Also I am committed to getting my website up to date now, despite the total absence of any returns on our last two years digs from the MOD :confused: – I had decided to wait for the paperwork in light of some horror stories I heard from a group who published the results of a site investigation on the web, before ensuring all was present and correct – seems the MOD have the time and inclination to monitor our websites 😮

There I go again getting controversial – so best shut up now & get back to work :dev2: