N.WotherspoonHi all
I would like to find the location of a USAAF a/c crash site in the UK. I know the rough location but can I obtain an actual grid reference from anywhere?
Slummer
Ah! If only they had written them all down!!! :dev2:
N.WotherspoonHi Cees
The project was taken on by Mr David Stansfield who lives near Burnley in Lancashire, when the Pennine Aviation group disbanded – last time I saw it he was dissassembling the tubular structure (which was all there was to it really) to aid storage in his over-flowing garage – He does ahve quite a collection of instruments, radios etc which are earmarked for it eventually, but I have not heard of any progress being made.
As for the quarry I hear he has been re-visiting it and found a few more bits for his project – I have tried to get the RAF Millom team interested, but to no avail – Yet! :diablo:
N.WotherspoonIt is definately Spitfire, in fact I think I can just make out the initials DB scratched into the seat back,and the damage on the port side, is consistant with tin leg impact , as the struggling pilot finally frees his trapped leg from underneath the rudder pedal.
Damn – knew I should have mentioned those and the fact that I found it sticking out of pile of gravel dredged from a lake in Northern France!!!! :dev2:
Seriously though I have had it a couple of years and never positively identified it – though the Defiant seems pretty close and I am inclined to believe that is what its off. In the end it is taking up room needed for new acquisitions, so it has to go – did think of mentioning it on here but dont like to plug my own auctions – hope it goes to a good home 🙂
However now I,m here – a shameless plug! :diablo: You may have also noted the “Spitfire” switches – well they could be! 😀 and the Flypast magazines collection also listed 😀
N.WotherspoonAbandoned remains etc!
Nick thats all interesting stuff! I think, but am not sure, that the claims on US wrecks relate to cases mostly in the States of USN wrecks. Seems that the USN and USAF are running by different rules. As you say, nobody wants to go to court over it but I suppose the situation could arise where the MOD lay claim to something that has been brought into the UK from, say, Russia. Andy Saunders
Hi Andy – Now I think about it, you are quite right, I’m pretty sure the cases I was thinking of were USN airframes and I hadnt considered the differing views of the different departments. I do know that when I was having difficulty obtaining a couple of permits for US aircraft for my Time Team dig, I got someone to check with the appropriate dept in the US and was told that permission had already been granted several weeks before.
Re abaondoned aircraft I am still unsure how these will be viewed – I have a lead on major parts from a US crash site that were removed at the time and re-used close to the crash location and perhaps more interesting – a lead on a Hurricane wreck that was removed from a crash site, only to be disposed of on a local domestic rubbish tip – I can see potential problems with both of them 🙁 Though from a technical point of view the Act does seem to protect the crash site only?
On a lighter note I did ask a few years ago, when having some particularly frustrating application problems, whether I would need a permit to recover parts from a Fiesler Fi 103 – I seem to recall the answer was probably! 😮
N.WotherspoonContinued discussion
Well I am glad to see that this thread continues to promote discussion and note some very interesting points raised by Andy. I am aware of the rather tenuous validity of the MODs claims to ownership – but as I and others have said – no one is prepared to go to court over it if they don’t have to. I was not aware of the issues regarding US wrecks as I thought that they did claim title and have seen several cases in recent years of the US authorities claiming ownership of recovred aircraft. From what I understand the MOD do request permission from the US authorities in each case and will not issue a licence until this has been granted?
I have also heard that the MOD are considering pursuing claim on their wrecks abroad, apparently in response to the number of digs now going ahead in France, Belgium and Germany.
Re the peice that originally started this thread – I will only say that it was definitely recovered post 1986 – However in view of a rather unpleasant communication from the seller and threatened legal action I have to say I feel it prudent not to comment any further on this matter 🙁
N.WotherspoonBeats me how they had so much time to make trench art, maybe if they had banned the making of it, the wars may have ended sooner ! The trenches must have been filled with little workshops churning out souveneirs.
I partly recall a quote from somwhere that Trench Warfare was 99% boredom % 1% sheer terror (may have misrecalled the actual %s). But whatever the case it certainly does seem that many soldiers had time to pass making such items – & very good most of them were at it too – the workmanship on most genuine items is remarkable – The french even had national competitions run by the country’s newspapers! You don’t see crude dribbles of solder all over the place and horrible deep file marks (let alone the angle-grinder marks on some fake pieces!).
Yes Bill the pathetic cast brass plane is a dead giveaway – its all of 2 weeks old, but that aside the clumsy proportions of the piece and appallingly crude workmanship scream “I was knocked together yesterday!” No self-respecting erk. let alone pilot would have ever put his name or reputation to this!
Many of the fake pieces seem to have an aviation theme which is why I thought this forum was the place to air this issue – I have tried making eB*y aware, but they are simply not interested 🙁
N.Wotherspoon– IIRC Hispanos are bloomin difficult to find, we’ve never ‘dug’ anything RAF with them fitted TT
You mean like these 😀
N.WotherspoonAll a bit pointless on that type of weapon, as there was no firing mechanism, and as a crash relic ,it obviously wasn’t concours condition either; not exactly the favorite weapon of yer yardy type or bank jobber
Exactly! – and as for the pair of 20mm Hispanos I had to have deact last year……. Fortunately I have now made contact with a very reasonable and knowledgeable local firearms inspector who they send out to check out our finds – he took one look at the .303 & commented that it would probably disintegrate if deact, so signed it off on the spot.
From what I understand, if the barrel is bent or blocked and a rod cannot be inserted, then the barrel has to be slotted instead 🙁
Ok then Alan time to reassess that Defiant!
N.WotherspoonAhhh nothing like digging a hole in the ground and finding stuff.Cheers mate.Great pix.
Not to mention the aroma of engine oil and aviation fuel soaked ground 😀 though in this case looks like there was not much oil to protect anything 😮
Hope you get to retain the guns TT – had hell of a job retracting the breech on a .303 last year (BL585), but the police do like to see the chamber is clear! Shame if you have to go down the deac route as I doubt there will be much left by the time they have finished with them 🙁 .
Also I hope a few of our lot are reading this thread after all the groans I got recently at suggesting going after ANOTHER Defiant! :dev2:
N.WotherspoonDear all,
need your help – we have been offered a .22 Charter Arms survival rifle (from a legitimate and legal source, it will be de-ac’d before we receive it) which was apparently issued to aircrew during WW2 and after.
I vaguely remember hearing something about this in the past but dont know whether this is correct – 682al and others- does this ring any bells?
The cost of deactivation will be borne by the Museum but we dont want to pay for something which is not ‘relevant’ to aircrew etc – (deact cost about £60)
anyone have any knowledge on this?
TT
Hi TT
On a recent investigation of a WB-29 crash site (44-61600 crashed 25.10.1955), we were surprised to find approximately twenty rounds of small calibre Ammunition, still in the remains of their cardboard carton, jammed underneath the rebuilt dry-stone wall that the WB-29 had ploughed through. Each cartridge bore the headstamp “WRA” indicating manufacture by the Winchester Repeating Arms Co. New Haven, Connecticut and the date 1944. By checking the cartridge dimensions these proved to be .30 calibre ammunition for the US M1 Carbine. Due to their small size and light weight they were carried in wartime B-29s as part of the survival kit and it seems that this provision was maintained on the WB-29s. Hope this helps.
N.WotherspoonEr Nick – 682al is the most knowledgeable RAF specialist on the forum so I’d listen to him if I were you…
And he always beats me to the ID’s….the sod! 🙂
TT
Hi TT – Yes I am well aware of Alan’s expertise & you are quite right his ability to id stuff is quite unnerving – I didnt really doubt him, just like a second opinion, so thought I would stir things a bit! :dev2: However I was not aware of the vestigal tailwheel on the Albermarle – that’s the beauty of this forum – there’s always something new to learn and so many knowledgable people to tap into – and I helped unearth the remains of an Albermarle recently too!!! 😮
N.WotherspoonThanks Alan
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply Alan – bit of a wide cross section there though? I could see Hurricane, Defiant and Lysander sharing a tailwheel & this would certainly fit with the size and apparent age, but I seem to recall the Anson one being a tad bigger & as for the Albermarle – tailwheel????? 😉
Come on you lot, this has been donated to a local museum (Southport) and is staying there, I’m not fishing for info just to stick it on eBay 😮 Now that should get some comments! :diablo:
N.WotherspoonJohn 35
Got hold of a copy of “Peter Five” by Freddie Clark from the local library – it was listed on the BAAC website as concerning 138 Squadron – There are lots of reproductions from the ORB in it and there does not appear to be any detail in it as to where the drop zones were actually located – However the book does mention the crash I am researching and the pilot was apparently a personal friend of the author and there is a nice anecdote about them all going out to a local pub in his car a couple of nights before he was killed, which adds some nice personal background
The book also has some individual “operations reports” reproduced which look more like the sort of thing I am after so will have to see if the one I want is at Kew?
All the crew are buried together close to the crash site in France, so will be paying my respects later in the year – if there had been any agents on board, would they also be buried locally and where would they be listed?
N.WotherspoonSOE Halifax
Would I be right in thinking “Percy 19” would be the drop zone target code? Does anyone know any source for identifying these locations? I am particulalrly interested in knowing where/what “John 35” was? – again connected with a 138 Sqn Halifax.
N.WotherspoonPermits
————————–
Discussing recent media interest in excavations with a pal who works for Scottish Heritage, he let slip his colleagues in English Heritage are putting pressure on the MoD to impose further restrictions on excavations by designating crash sites as being of historical value. Apparently, there have already been meetings between the Air Historical Branch and EH on this topic. Cannot confirm this, but sounds plausible.
Interesting! I had got the impression that EH had lost interest in Crash sites as there was no funding to do anything about recording them properly? BAAC members have been filling in site reports for them for a while to help build a database – well we should have been and I know mine are overdue before anyone reminds me! 😉 So this would be a bit of biting the hand that feeds them :confused: – Face it the MOD rarely know where the sites are until we tell them! so EH won’t be getting much out of them.
As for the refusal case that I mentioned, I have now had a chat with Innsworth & basically with it being a post war crash there is much more documentation available to them, including detailed report on what was (and sadly not) recovered of the unfortunate pilot and their decision was based on this. They did not have details as to the nature of the crash or the type of terrain, so this was not taken into account – they could have asked me though 🙁
I have been now asked to provide written details of our research and survey of the site and they will take this into account and reconsider – which I have done and await their decision. I would like to point out though that if I thought for a moment that there was any realistic possibility of finding any significant remains of the pilot on the site I would not be taking this course of action & would have accepted their decision.
I will report in due course as to the result – don’t hold your breath though, it seems that the dept dealing with permits is severly understaffed and no doubt others will be experiencing delays as well – I have still heard nothing about the other two permits I have applied for, at the beggining of the year, other than confirmation they have been received and are being dealt with.
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