N.WotherspoonI,m not betting my life on it but I reckon it,s part of the magazine trigger release.Looks real close to it on the drawing.And the silver(Aluminium)paint means it,s internal structure,not in the cockpit.The wear and tear would be from the erks shifting the magazines in and out of the wing.Did you get anything else from the dig??
Thanks for trying – the reason I was asking was I could not see how what appeared at first to be a cockpit related item and ended up where we found it – but your theory would explain it – from the mag reading & what we have found on the spot, I am pretty sure the 20mm is still in there.
We know from documents that the engine was removed, though it was reported as totally smashed. We are getting good mag hits on the main crater too, so hoping for some good finds – prop hub, U/C legs etc probably.
Have been waiting four months now for the permit & dig is set for mid July – so will report on it then. In the meantime attached is the result of last years dig on another MkV – BL585 😀
N.WotherspoonStuart check drawing 33162-5-G.The lever in it looks close??
There is at least one number in front of the “162” and on closer inspection it does appear to be a “3” if this helps?
N.WotherspoonNot sure – But!
Afraid I can not give a definite answer, but it does bear a close resemblance to a couple of pieces I have found on one Hurricane dig (PG472) – though mine burnt out so there were no traces of wood. Not being really interesting enough to display they will be in store somewhere at the museum, so I do not have them to hand. Seem to recall they were steel rather than alloy, which yours appears to be and certainly wood stringers were used on Hurricane fuselage construction, so the materials are correct. We also found a lot of small brass screws – in fact they made using the metal detector a pain!
N.WotherspoonWhat is it?
Ummm is it a lever??Part number might help.Possibly a fuel **** lever or a part of the drop tank release lever on a Spit.Guys??
Thanks OldSpitty – My thoughts were control lever of some sort, but it came from a major magnetometer contact found some several feet from the main crater. We did a small test pit on it & all the parts appeared to be wing related incl a 18 inch long section of main spar – The final part before we filled in was the gas connector for a 20mm Hispano with parts still going down & the mag hit still very strong 😀
We know from the board of enquiry report that one wing struck the ground first, so we think from the evidence, we have found this spot.
Typically the markings are not clear as the item came from close to the surface – I can make out “162 99” and a letter N? in a circle next to “CH”. Finally a very small circle with what looks like “88” over “172” within it.
The piece of frame? it is attached to still bears silver painted finish and the end of the lever is bent over at 90 degrees (not damage) and show obvious signs of wear from regular handling?
Does this help?
N.Wotherspoonpermmision is refused on the grounds that we cannot locate one of the airmans graves in the USA, he was in the Madingly cemetry untill 1948 then taken back to the USA at the familys request and due to a fire in the US records we cannot locate the grave so no dig !
May be worth you contacting the US authorities to see if they have actually any objection to the excavation – under the circumstances I would doubt it – UK MOD are only acting as agents in the case of US aircraft, but seem to need reminding of this occasionally!!! We had a similar problem at the early stages of the TT dig as we had not located one grave. We wondered whether this was a problem and managed to ascertain that the US authorities had no objections at all and had communicated this to the MOD months earlier, even though the MOD were still witholding a permit! It was only when confronted with this information that the MOD then admitted that the problem was in fact because they didnt know how to proceed due to the site being a SSSI. It seems that the MOD had just discovered that they should have not been issuing permits for such sites until English Nature had issued their own permit to the group – red tape tying up more red tape IMO :confused:
N.WotherspoonFirst Permit refused
I forgot to mention one civilian (1935) and a prototype still on charge of the maker, which dont need permits!!! :dev2:
However seriously – Just retnd from my first trip to France of the year 🙂 to find the first reply to the three permit applications – REFUSED! 😡 – It is a site that has already been excavated, but we have found a significant contact that has been overlooked where one of the engines (stbd) impacted.
I applied in January & it has taken four months for Innsworth simply state that althought the majority of the pilots remians were recovered at the time they have found evidence to suggest that some may still be present – He has a known grave and I am sure any family members still around will not take kindly to such an admission!
The impact was at a shallow angle on high ground – the aircraft was scattered over a wide area – along with the unfortunate pilot and only the engines penetrated the ground and then only to a few feet – so the chance of any such remains being present is IMO very very slim – But that is not the point – the pilot was to all intents and purposes recovered at the time – this was post war, so no hurried wartime recovery here – looks like Innsworth have finally come up with a reason to refuse permits wholsale? as this criteria would obviously apply to just about any site where any of the crew were killed in the crash? 🙁
Before we get on to the rights and wrongs of recovering crashed remains, I would like to point out that my Grandfather is missing in action (at sea, 1940) so I do have a personal insight into the issues involved + I am regularly in contact with relatives associated with the sites we excavate and this has always resulted in positive correspondance.
I feel this could have major implications for our hobby and I would be very interested to hear how other applications have faired.
N.WotherspoonStraffing?
Without digging through all my files I’m afraid this post is going to be rather short and to the point.
Re the German raider shot down over the Ribble estuary – it was a Ju88 of II/KG54 on April 7/8th 1941, shot down by a Defiant of 256 Squadron from Squires Gate and two of the four crew survived – the local police, ARP wardens and homeguard went to considerable lengths to rescue the airmen from the remote and treacherous Banks marshes. Although I have heard that one was apparently struck later, after perhaps being misunderstood, I have interviewed many witnesses to this incident and it aftermath and have never heard of anyone trying to force them back into the river to drown them – quite the opposite in fact.
As for straffing I also recall that there was a pretty well documented account of a lone German raider machine-gunning a bus travelling up Bull Hill towards the cemetery at Darwen in Lancashire – I seem to recall that no one was injured, but the driver was badly shaken – I will have to find my notes!
N.WotherspoonMeteor Digs
Hi – We dug a Meteor crash site at the end of last year – sorry no details as paperwork on a found weapon still outstanding. We were also amazed by the lack of airframe and engine debris from what had been by all accounts a full impact. Only a few very dense items had actually embedded themselves in the ground – lead ballast weights, tail skid, mass balance weights and one 20mm Hispano – in two pieces! There were a few parts from the cockpit, but these were well above the bottom of the crater and we surmised they had probably been thrown back in – part of the cockpit floor structure, base of control column, radio tuner and a few misc controls.
It seems that on impact there had been a tremendous explosion and this had dissipated the momentum and blown the remains of the aircraft outwards instead of it embedding itself in the ground. Whether this is typical of meteor crashes I don’t know – but your experience sounds very similar – in our case the pilot was also blown clear we found later he had been found hanging in a nearby tree. Having dug another jet a few years ago – a Supermarine attacker – we were expecting bits of engine to be everywhere, but did not even find one turbine blade!!!
N.WotherspoonDigs?
Hi – Three digs last year – All have resulted in extra paperwork re identity / weapons etc 🙁 & in light of one group’s problems after a dig was prematurely featured on the web, I’m afraid I am not updating the website / making details public until all sorted out.
Also Three permit applications in for this year – So Far! :dev2:
N.WotherspoonBL688
Interesting responses – I thought it must be a Typo? But it seems not :confused: – However where did the data plate come from – I have done some research and I am certain that the site has not been excavated since the 1945 recovery of the pilot and remains of the engine.
Two groups have previously conducted MD surveys – one found nothing and the other not much more – certainly no data plate! The 1180 is one of the many MkV ones missing, but I do have the 78 – very interesting history – from Jan 1942 to May 45 it served with 132 Sqn, 610 Sqn, USAAC 335 Sqn! 501 Sqn, 316 sqn, then 41 OTU & finally 58 OTU – Must be a few stories in that lot – I see many happy hours of research ahead 😀
Anyone recognise this bit please?
N.WotherspoonEnd of Auction
Well I note that the auction ended without the usual flurry of sniping – I also note that it seems the seller withdrew the item from sale at the last minute & emailed all the bidders to tell them it was no longer available as ” I CANNOT COMPLETE THIS SALE WITH ANY BIDDER” – though he does state that it may be relisted at a later date :confused:
I did communicate with the high bidder – who was a thoroughly decent chap & it seemed wanted the item for genuine reasons, but was unaware of the trouble it was causing – I hope Bob will be able to update us at later date as to what happened – though realise he can probably not say anything at this stage.
N.WotherspoonForage Cap 🙂
Seems to be much less aeronautical junk on carboots these days – the “professional” dealers must be getting hungrier 😮 Used to be all sorts of instruments on most that I went to, picked up a couple of nice navigator’s angle poise lamps and the odd RAF marked escape axe in the past, but 50s dials don’t really do it for me! 😉
Best find was a nice original Luftwaffe Officer’s forage cap 😀 It was on a big boot sale & they were filming that silly TV show & all the “dealers” were trying to avoid getting on camera in case the tax man saw them?
I walked up behind the so-called TV celebrity “expert”, said excuse me & leaned over and picked it up right in front of him whilst he was enthusing over a horrible piece of wade china – stall holder was looking very bemused by it all. We moved out of camera shot & he quietly said he thought it was repro & wanted £7 but I haggled :rolleyes: got it for £4 – It was totally genuine, complete with badges & is now in the RAF Millom Museum collection 😀
N.WotherspoonTail code?
Glad to see I have at least promoted some thoughtful discussion! I did take Stuart’s point and try emailing the seller – but have had no reply whatsoever. Though it good to see that the FAAM have taken notice and action, I fear it will soon be too late – such is the nature of eBay auctions and sellers (not accusing this one of course) are well aware of that – look at the RAF tunic offered a while ago – dug from a wreck in the UK & offered complete with history and recovered personal possesions I believe – The seller put it on a three day auction with a Buy it Now & just to make sure he listed it on Canadian eBay even though he was in the UK – when a complaint was made to eBay they said they could do nothing because it was in Canada!!!???!!!
Just one further thought on this item – it appears to me to be one of the tail codes – wasn’t the recovery of the tail one of the prime goals of the FAAM recovery! Also if you look at the supersize picture the seller has so thoughtfully provided it is also obvious it has been freshly hacked off – you can see the clean tin-snip marks. Somewhere I have full set of photos of this crash site before the recovery & I am pretty sure I will have one with the code still attached to the tail 🙁
N.WotherspoonOn another tack what about the German wrecks? the MOD don’t own them ,the original purchaser, (the third reich) no longer exists.
Actually the Protection of Military remains Act covers “disturbing” wrecks, not just recovering them so thay have probably got just about everything covered – though I doubt they would prosecute in the case you mention, as they would be scared of adverse publicity & the outcome would probably be far from certain – though I would’nt like the legal cost of challenging the MOD 😮
Re the German wrecks – Yes they are Crown property as they are considered captured enemy equipment! US aircraft actually still belong to the US government, but the MOD as some sort of custodial rights to protect them as well – or so they say!!! :rolleyes:
N.WotherspoonMOD
as I understand it the permit is something of a formality mainly to protect undiscovered war graves, and in it self not a transfer of ownership from the MOD to the permit holder.
Hi again Stuart – you are quite right, the permit is only consent to recover the remains and is not a transfer of ownership or indeed any guarantee that ownership will be transferred. The transfer of ownership takes place after the recovered items have been officially declared to the MOD.
I believe that the 1986 Act was origianlly designed to protect shipwrecks that ARE officially recognised as war graves and it was then extended to cover aircraft wrecks as well – If only aircraft crash sites where aircrew remain were given war grave status as well!!! – But don’t get me started on that one!
I like your line of thinking re the cost of removing contamination etc – would certainly get the MOD worried! Perhaps then they would very quickly relinquish their claim to ownership? I believe that one local council did try to pursue claiming the cost of removing a wreck on land to be developed several years ago, but don’t know how it was resolved.
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