Hornets Nest
Hi Suart – I appreciate your concerns – Thank you for taking the time to point them out and I have taken note – My main aim was to promote discussion and increase awareness amongst fellow enthusiasts – I do hope the seller hears that the item is being discussed, as I would welcome his/her input / explanation. I have not tried contacting them direct via eBay as last time I did this I got a lot of abuse telling me to get real, as sellers can do as they please and no one is going to stop them, especially not eBay! Not saying this would happen again, but don’t wish to repeat the experience.
You are quite right that a dig cannot take place without landowner’s consent – what I was trying to say was that the MOD will NOT issue a permit unless this has been first obtained – in writing and on the correct MOD form! However you are incorrect I’m afraid over ownership – the MOD maintains that they retain control over ALL aircraft remains via the Protection of Military Remains Act (1986) and that all such material remains the property of the Crown until officially disposed of.
If the dig on your land took place before 1986 then a permit was not required and the MOD did not apparently pursue the matter of ownership at that time. As for metal detectorists who enter land without permission and leave holes not filled in – you are most certainly not alone in your low opinion of them!
Owner?
Would it not be worth contacting the seller to ask if he has legal title to this item? or at least a bit of research before posting here, virtually accusing the man of theft, I have no conection at all with the item ,although I did see it on ebay ;it appears to be only a small section of outer skin.I am not absolutely sure that only the permit holder can be the owner, as the land owner will also have a say in the matter.
Hi Stuart – I am not accusing anyone of anything – I posted the thread to increase awareness – I have been involved in Aviation Archaeology for over 25 years & I do have strong feelings on selling ANY items from crash sites, but that is my personal feeling – i also have strong views on removing items from shipwrecks where they are war graves too – But it happens! 🙁 The landowner has NO legal title over aircraft remains – they remain the property of the Crown, as the MOD goes to great pains to point out. When a permit is applied for it HAS to be to a named individual who is then legally responsible that any recovery is carried out in accordance with MOD guidelines. Once the recovery is completed all recovered items have to be declared to the MOD and then legal title is transferred to that individual – unless required by a National collection, of course.
The Landowner is required to have given consent for the recovery operation to take place, as it is disturbing his/her land after all and they have every right not to do this – the MOD are therfore keen to ensure that this has genuinely been given. Once title is transferred the new owner (permit holder), it seems that they have the right to do as they see fit with the recovered remains – even sell them on eBay – they are by then their own property after all.
However I was pointing out that this recovery was done in the name of a highly respected organisation – namely the FAA Museum – to obtain parts for a specific restoration project. Although the part in question is only a piece of skinning, as you say, that may not be of use for this project, I think most readers on here would have spotted that it does have significant historical interest in that it bears the aircraft’s serial Number!
Forward firing?
Hi
I have the control column from N3328 – crashed 24rd October 1942, sadly Flight Sergeant John Leslie Goulter the sole occupant was killed. This has the obvious remains of the gun button still evident & I recall reading that if the turret guns were locked in the forward position the pilot did have the option of using them. However as they would have fired through the propeller arc and were not sychronised, I guess this would only be used in a pretty extreme emergency due to the risk of damaging the prop – I have never come across a published account of the feature actualy being used though.
More info: Defiant N3328
Blackpool Vulcan scrapped?
Last I heard the owner was listing the engines on eBay – “as is, where is” etc as usual 🙁 – they were still very much attached to XL391 in the photos and looked in a very poor state – buyer was invited to remove them!!! 😮 Perhaps unsurprisingly he didnt get a single bid despite relisting the auction twice.
Whitley
Oh, and before anyone says it, the hubcaps will be missing …
Thought the Whitley was in the Dee estuary? It was marked on maps has a navigation hazard I believe for many years – will have to dig out my notes – Oh & the tyres and radio will not have lasted the night either! 😮
Re medals on eBay
I don’t collect medals, but had also heard some of the tricks that sellers stoop to on eBay – However when I saw a group to a survivor from my Grandad’s ship – HMS Glowworm ( He was not a survivor sadly) – my interest was aroused. The group, if I recall correctly, included a POW letter, telegram saying he had survived, post card, the medals and a few bits of paperwork – some of which were described as copies “as the family had wished to keep the originals” – I talked to a couple of collectors to find their worth and after some advice emailed the seller with a few direct questions. It turned out that all the associated material bar the post card were in fact photocopies or scans and the medals were “representative” originals??? :confused: As the price began to climb I decided it was too great a risk and did not bid & the “group” went for £160 😮
Attacker
I have three good original photos of WA 535 + about two tons of the aircraft! :rolleyes: They are from three different angles on the ground & show pretty good detail – PM me your email if you want scans & I will see if I can persuade my scanner to work!
Instrument panel
Got bored & started browsing eBay & saw this Original-Flugzeugcockpit-1-1-eines-Fokker-Wulf-Jaegers I have absolutely no connection with the item, just though it may be of interest / worthy of comment on here?
Thanks!
Thanks for the replies 🙂
Watson’s Stone
Hi – Re the Stone scrap yard – not been for several years & doubt much is left worth having – word of warning though – an “enthusiast” trying to remove an item from the bottom of one of the many precarious piles of scrap there, dislodged the lot & was trapped – they got him out, but he died in hospital – since than the owner had definitely not welcomed visitors – don’t recall the JP cockpit – may have been there, but must have been hidden or too smashed to recognise – the lightning was a totally bear shell – was in a crate when it arrived! Anyone know what happened to all those lovelly search lights thay had at £60 each! 😮 desperately wanted one but lived with parents at time & no chance of sneaking it in the back door! same happened with a complete Hercules power egg for £40 – got the room now, but nothing seems to be around any more 🙁
Surely someone knows?
Can’t believe I did’nt get any replies 🙁
Still a mystery?
I only have the dimensions given above – will try to get some more accurate measurements – I was surprised by its condition considering it came out of the sea & from the paint traces thought tail section as well.
Anyone else any thoughts?
Whoops – sorry!
You are quite right about the date – it was the 13.02.1942 – serves me right for relying on my obviously failing memory & not checking my notes.
Paley was involved in a mock dog fight with Sgt Majchrzyk when he apparently blacked out – regaining conciousness, it seems he discovered he had parted company with BL585 and was in urgent need of his parachute! He made a successful decent, landing in the yard of a nearby collliery where he was almost set upon by miners coming off shift who mistook his accent for german!
Not quite a survivor!
We have just excavated the crash site of a 308 sqn Spitfire Vb – entry door to the cockpit is the largest piece of airframe, but still has the top bar of the “Z” on it – but no makers plate, so no rebuild 😮
Note: BL585, crashed. 21/02/1942 Pilot F/Lt Boleslaw Paley (Palej) bailed out.
rebuild?
Hi Mark
I know we got some nice bits from BL585 the other week – but I think a rebuild might be stretching our resources a little :dev2: By the way Gareth found another Data plate amongst the scrap today with “BL585” pencilled on the back!!! 🙂