LokeBut that’s just my humble opinion on that matter.
nice summary!
LokeWell I wonder when NG will be ready. I doubt it will be ready by 2013. If it’s not then I don’t see the hurry of getting the Raven ready by that date.
I have not seen any dates, but it seems the first NG will fly perhaps some time next year (?)
So I am guessing NG will be ready by 2015. Strictly speaking I would think that then one does not really need the production Raven before that time?
LokeYou are some kind of insider right? I mean you know Rafale’s a2a performance and RCS with such certainty you can accurately compare it to your beloved Gripen.
Actually it was meant as a joke… 😉
A lot of people here seem to know all those things about Gripen so then I decided I could claim similar level of knowledge about the Rafale. 😀
The point is I think very few on this forum know much of how these really compare.
We are all guessing. Or are you claiming that the people on this forum who say that Rafale will be superior in a2a to Gripen NG have some insider knowledge, which let them with certainty accurately compare it to their beloved Rafale?
Although I am curious to know about the datalink to Meteor on Rafale. Will it be two-way in the future?
LokeRCS:
Brazilian evaluation rumors, and i say rumor because there is no way to verify if its true or not, like most things about the FX2 (SH, Gripen).
French pilots talking about range detection against Typhoon, and gap in materals and designs with the remining (F16, Mig 35).
Ah, the “leaks” by Pepe I presume?
I say we don’t know which has the lowest RCS, we can only speculate.
Does the Rafale air intakes have radar blockers?
LokeThe probe and the radar again, you sure you don’t want to add the canards ?:D
The range of the radar is fine especially against other 4th gen aircrafts with the AESA version, and its not the only way for the Rafale to detect, identify, track and designate target.
Of all the MMRCA cadidate it has the lower RCS.
All the MMRCA contenters will have advanced passive sensors…
How do you know the Rafale has the lowest RCS?
LokeChances,
Gripen? even not in dreams, LCA MKII would be too close and more independently build! sweden world weight? neutral dyplomacy?
India has better options!
The Rafale will be too weak in a2a. The radar is too small and has a too short range; Meteor will be limited du to lack of two-way data link; RCS is too big due to the non-canted radar and the refueling probe.
LokeLOL 🙂
You’re gona see that the RAVEN will be ahead of REBE2-AA soon…
I don’t know about RAVEN but for the Eurofighter SELEX one (closely liked with the RAVEN) some British officials espect 2015…. if funded.
The only thing we don’t know yet is if 2015 is the pre-production (of the pre-funded) radar, like say late 2008 for the RBE2-AA; or if it’s the operational one like the 2012 RBE2-AA.
I bet on the first one (2008 stage) though the one who said 2015 was a operational so it could be arguably 2012 stage (I don’t believe it though)
So 3 to 7 years late, ~5 years.
If Gripen should be a relevant competitor in MMRCA and FX2 the production radar should be ready by 2015 IMHO. And it may be possible given that Saab and Selex both have worked towards AESA radars for a long time and Selex even have fighter radars on the market.
2015 will be 2 years after the first Rafale flies with it’s first production radar.
(an operational fighter radar that is not installed in an operational a/c is not very useful)
LokeFirstly, it is the highest operating frequency (shortest wavelength) that sets the maximum element spacing. So around 10GHz is probably a better frequency to use in the calculations.
Secondly, it is obvious from the photos that the elements are placed in a triangular lattice. The reason is that it allows to use fewer T/R modules, which gives a cheaper antenna, less power consumption, less cooling required and allows a larger space for each T/R module.
The theoretical number of modules (for an antenna with max scan angle of 90deg, …) that is needed for a 60cm disc is then pi*30^2/(lambda^2/2/sqrt(3))=1088. If you restrict the antenna to max scan angles of 70deg you will need 1024. You can squeeze in more modules if you want, but that will increase power consumption, cost, …
So with a 55 cm disc we get pi*27.5^2/(/(lambda^2/2/sqrt(3)) = 914 (if I did my math right.)
That is around 1000 — and they should be able to squeeze in some more that that estimate as well. However cooling will be more of a problem and may be the main issue for Rafale.
Some people are complaining that Gripen NG has “too small radar” for e.g. the MMRCA, what would those same people then say about the Rafale radar..?
Sancho78 where are you… :diablo:
The current Gripen radar has a peak output of > 10kW — the NG will have improved power supply so the AESA radar output will go even higher. What is the peak output of the RBE2?
OTOH with LPI it may not be so relevant anymore?
How often to you need a powerful radar these days as long as you turn down the power in LPI mode?
Any thoughts on this from the experts?
LokeTay nice picture!
Interesting to see that they don’t envision canting the radar, perhaps they don’t think it would be worth the tradeoff gives the frontal structure of the Rafale and how it is laid internally. 900 should give a good performance increase over the RBE2, but its front end isn’t famous for long range. The lack of canting is a shame though, considering the RCS advantages and wide radar coverage arc, the latter giving both better situational awareness and a turn away first capability.
Well as Tmor and others have pointed out the photograph seems to be from2008 and is therefore a prototype (or a mock-up?).
Perhaps the final version has not just more TR elements but is also canted?
LokePARIS, July 7 (UPI) — Thales is set to begin delivering in August its first production batch of AESA radars for use in the fourth tranche of Dassault Rafale strike fighters.
The French air force’s first squadron of four AESA-equipped Rafales is expected to become fully operational by 2012.
So in July last year they said 2012, now they say 2013 — why the one-year delay?
LokeBecause the French (1) allow more to be made in Brazil & (2) don’t impose the restrictions the US does on what can be done with what it sells.
Heard about the RNZAF? Not even allowed to sell its old Skyhawks & its (Italian but with some US components) MB339 trainers (hardly the most threatening things in existence) to a customer in the USA because the State Department wouldn’t agree.
When such arbitrary & petty restrictions are imposed, any country which thinks that it might, one day, want to be able to disagree or compete with the USA tends to be wary of putting itself in a vulnerable position.
I am not sure about your first point — depends what you mean. If you mean that France will allow a larger fraction of each a/c to be produced in Brazil you are probably right. But if you are talking about overall workload then SH may still come out on top since the US can offer to let Brazil do work on not just the Brazilian SH but also others, and perhaps also offer participation in other Boieng projects as well.
I definitely agree on the second point, and therefore it is very interesting to see that so many countries still buys US fighters! Look at export sales of F-16 and F-15 the last 15 years! Compare that to sales of Rafale….
Rafale is great but few countries are willing to pay the monetary price of buying it — and at the end of the day many may also not be willing to pay the political price of not picking a US fighter….
One looks at the pros and cons and surprisingly often the conclusion becomes a US fighter.
Perhaps Gripen can win in Brazil if the offset deals are good enough!
otherwise, the US will get another contract, it seems to me.
OTOH I suspect we don’t know yet what the new president is really thinking. Jobim will of course push the Rafale as he always did, and some of his arguments are indeed sound, so perhaps she will surprise everybody and pick Rafale after all (although I doubt it, with her focus on costs…)
LokeIt’s not in Indias interest to send out a tied RFP with so specific requirements, that they get only 1, or 2 possible choices. The more alternatives they have, the more they can bargain for lower costs, more ToT, or other advantages.
Who said they should do that? It’s OK to send out an RFP to six contenders, however it is rather unusual to perform a complete evaluation including a lot of test flights with 6 fighters in particular of such diversity. I am not the first to make that observation.
They could easily have specified the requirements to end up with, say, 3 or 4 fighters instead of six. That is already enough to make it a competition.
Alternatively they could have done a shortlist of 3-4 fighters after getting the offers but before starting all the flight testing etc.
I still believe Gripen has a chance — it should if it fulfils the requirements.
It is clearly the “underdog”, and the most likely winner IMHO would be the SH.
I doubt Rafale is that high on the list due to high costs. In a2a it does not offer more than Gripen, I would argue that it would actually offer less on many important parameters…
Loke– probably a few things to iron out & a few modes to continue developing fully.
Nic
Indeed, so perhaps the lead compared to Gripen/Typhoon is not as big as some like to think…
LokeLoke, are you naive enough to believe that an email is proving anything…They will give you just like for swerve mail the same answer that they would give in the press. You show this mail as a trophy but it doesn’t invalidate the fact that those rounded figures can hide a difference and doesn’t bring anything new to the current debate. You can’t hide behind this e-mail. All this speculation is funded on air. The ony thing certain is that the rafale is the first Eurocanard to get an operational AESA.
Well if the actual number is around 1000 they may be able to say something like “those images are of a prototype, the production model has a significantly higher number of modules”. We still would not know the exact number but we would get a confirmation that the number is significantly higher than 850.
It depends how they respond, if they respond at all.
LokeI was writing a long coherent reply, and then I realised you were just envious that the Gripen had a production model aesa starting production 😎
Nic
Perhaps you mean to say ‘Rafale’ above?
No I am not envious. I think it’s great that Rafale will get AESA in 2013, I was just curious that it was not introduced even earlier if it’s being produced today and it takes one month to produce.
Gripen and Typhoon will get their AESAs 1-2 years later it seems. Perhaps a more modern design since they are being developed now whereas the main development of the RBE2 has already concluded… 😉
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