LokeI think the Chief is pretty clear on that too, but maybe I’m mistaken on that as well. 🙂
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4609
http://www.hindustantimes.com/IAF-to-sign-contract-for-combat-aircraft-in-2011/Article1-573309.aspx
Sancho, your last link is rather old (from July last year). I suspect the other two links you gave are actually referring to that July story. Therefore the information you presented most likely is out-dated.
Here is some more up-to-date information…:
NEW DELHI – India could award the $10 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract by the end of the year, according to the country’s defense minister.
M.M. Pallam Raju, the minister of state for defense, said on the sidelines of a Jan. 19 conference here that the warplane contest could be decided by December.
LokeThe whole Europe has no plan for a 5th gen 😉
The UK, Spain, Italy, Holland, Turkey, Norway, and Denmark are F-35 partners and participate in the F-35 development, and most (if not all) will buy the plane… These countries are normally referred to as “European” and F-35 is normally referred to as 5. gen…
In addition it is expected that also many other European countries will purhcase F-35.
LokeFake.
If they wanted such an aircraft, it would be more logical to get some more experience from the J20 first, so lessons learnt can be incorporated into a cheaper fighter. This would be very similar to the F22/F35 situation. I see no reason why this second aircraft would not be “full stealth”, since the stealth should not require it to be significantly more expensive, as much of the infrastructure for a stealth type in J20 already exists. The investment is made, why would they not capitalise on that? To intentionally keep themselves from having lots of shiny stealth fighters like the US? That would be more the hope of the American patriot, rather than the aim of the Chinese officer!
I believe there are two different companies (SAC and CAC) working on different prototypes, just like LM and Boeing are working on different prototypes.
If SAC wants to get a slice of the future Chinese aviation market they probably need to come up with their own “4.75” or 5. gen fighter, if not their competitor will take it all.
LokeI’m sure France would also be interested, it will need the cooperation and good/strong relation with the emerging that matter the most beside china. Brasil could a perfect candidate.
That’s interesting, I have not heard much about any plans for a future 5. gen French fighter, do you have any links?
LokeIf i was Boeing i would be also worried to a certain extent.
It’s been 2 year for the FX 2, longer for the FX 1. Lots of politicians, including H. Clinton visiting, all Boeings sale force, Congress representatives, ambassadors, all taking position on this matter… All trying to persuade Brazil that Boeing was the best offer and would ensure ToT. Even after that, Roussef has to go to congress herself because their are not enough guarantees.Brazil does not want to buy a plane they want to buy the technology that comes behind. The best one they can get right now is 4.5 gen.
Well yes but the fact that she did contact the Americans seems to demonstrate to me that Brazil is interested in the SH and perhaps the only thing that is holding it back is the ToT. Price and performance is most likely acceptable!
AFAIK the only major military power these days that seem to have no immediate plans for a 5. gen fighter is France… Brazil is building a strong and modern navy that will include aircraft carriers and nuclear subs! And then FAB must be happy with a mere 4.5 gen fighter for the foreseeable future?
Brazil cannot build a 5. gen by herself, not even with ToT from SH. She would need to partner with someone if she does not want to simply purchase off-the-shelf.
Turkey, South Korea, Indonesia may be interested — and India has plans for her own 5. gen, perhaps Brazil could team up with one or more of those?
If Brazil buys Gripen I am sure Sweden would be interested in collaborating on developing a 5. gen plane however with the current Swedish economy I don’t know if that would be sufficient, a third partner would be needed.
LokeHaving said that, she is Da Silva’s protege (who dislikes the US), and a former marxist guerilla is highly unlikely to order an overpriced capitalist type (F-35).
Still she seems to talk to the US about tech transfer…
In a sign that Rousseff is carefully reevaluating Boeing’s offer, Rousseff personally asked U.S. senators visiting Brasilia last week for technology transfer guarantees from the U.S. Congress to bolster the Boeing bid, sources with knowledge of the conversation said.
Hmm perhaps they will go for SH in a big way and not a 5. gen fighter?
Now if I were Saito that would make me furious… 😀
Edit: F-35 is over budget and will initially probably be very expensive. However given the large number of a/c that will be bought by the US+ partners/close allies the price will eventually come down to an acceptable level, probably cheaper than a Typhoon or Rafale. So saying that it’s “overpriced” may hold true initially but not in the future.
LokeI just wonder whether these notional threats are pressing enough to push this competition from the political point scoring stage into reality.
Brazil is surely developing well, and as such should be able to sustain a fighter contest as well as the reconstruction needed after a natural disaster. It has a burgeoning economy, and massive resources (and responsibilities) after all.
Yes Brazil seems able to afford these jets. However short-term there seems to be no hurry to get new jets (if you consider the threats that may arise). Longer-term things become more blurred and nobody knows how the world will develop.
However one may argue (and I would be surprised if nobody within FAB is arguing this) that since we are now in 2011 and the 5. gen fighters are “just around the corner” does it really make sense to invest heavily in 4.5 gen fighters?
I think the FAB is aware of the developments of F-35, PAK-FA, J-20, and (soon) AMCA, and for sure there will be others.
I have argued this already: IF they still want to buy a 4.5 gen then it should be as a stop-gap, and/or as the “Lo” in a “Hi-Lo” mix consisting of 4.5 and 5. gen fighters.
Gripen seems well suited as a “Lo” in such a mix; to some extent also SH. Rafale seems too expensive to be the “Lo” in a Hi-Lo mix, or as a stop-gap for that matter. Mirage 2000 could be an interesting stop-gap since FAB already operates some.
Or they can decide to just refurbish their current fighters, wait until 2020 and go straight for a 5. gen.
LokeYes, Tmor, this case is a blow to Dassault more than to anyone else (well with the exception of FAB, Saito must be furious), and that includes SAAB and Boeing.
Why would Saito be furious? AFAIK the FAB was split in two on the FX2; one part preferred the SH (mature, very advanced avionics, etc etc) whereas the other part preferred Gripen (offers more opportunity for co-development, more cost-effective). Which of these “camp” is bigger or more influential I don’t know.
Or do you think Saito is furious because it will take him longer to get the a/c?
LokeI am sure. I am sure.
Whether F-16.net have “a lot” of F-16 pilots I don’t know but they do have several F-16 pilots, and also some mechanics. Some very good discussions to be found there. A bit US-sentric of course, as you would expect.
Just like here there are several fanboys but overall the F-16.net site has a very high level on the discussions.
LokeWell I am curious what they said about the F-35, because: If it is added to the list then I think I know which a/c the FAB wants…! And it will not be any of the a/c on the current list.
I have yet to see an air force that turns down the F-35 in competition with 4.5 gen fighters.
Of course politics will decide but whereas the air force is probably “fine” with any of the 4.5 gens, I think they will lobby much harder if F-35 is on offer. Which means that it may win if politics dictates a US winner.
LokeLatest update from Brazil:
The President Dilma Rousseff, who had avoided before taking the leave outgoing government decided the award of the 36 combat aircraft 2-FX program after more than five years, turned into a soap opera, or, in the words of Boeing executives in a Wild West film-just decided the suspension of bidding and a new call with more options, making possible future inclusion in a list to the Eurofighter and the SU-35, but versions of “decaffeinated” in the costly F-35, in addition to current pre-qualified, the Dassault Rafale, Saab Gripen NG and Super Hornet Boeing II.
Wow.
What does it say about the F-35 in the original text?
LokeAs for the ability to project power, well i do not see any PRC deployments around the world that can even began to threaten Europe, the largest operations they have carried out are the current anti piracy missions, and you can compare European involvement to theirs.
Time for a Loke prediction: Twenty years from now China will operate more aircraft carriers than the US.
LokeAlso Thales is second most capable electronic company after rayton they are even competing to provide a radar to the us littoral ship.
Swerve already addressed the second part of your statement above.
For the first part: Thales has an impressive track record no doubt however since this is the military aviation let’s focus on fighter radars.
A Thales spokesperson said (last year) that the two leading companies are Raytheon, Northrop-Grumman, and Thales on 3rd….
In response to this a Selex spokesperson said the two leading companies are Raytheon, Northrop-Grumman, and Selex on 3rd…
Interestingly when India wanted assistance on their AESA radar for the Tejas they shortlisted Elta and EADS… :rolleyes:
Seems to me that Raytheon and NG are the two leading companies at least when it comes to AESA radars for fighters.
And who is “third” is really up in the air. Thales? Selex, Elta? EADS? My gut feeling is that perhaps it’s Elta with the European companies more or less on the same level, but far behind the US companies and probably also trailing Elta. But I may be wrong.
LokeHere is an article from Ares highlighting the LM claims that the F35 can target the F22 (and so we assume also the T50 and J20).
Is this type of thinking the “get out of jail card” for European fighter manufacturers or are they wiser to redesign their aircraft?
I am not trying to repeat the “future or European fighter design” thread, but i do think that the use of new sensors and weapons is the most promising route for Eurofighter, SAAB and Dassault.
New sensors certainly will help, however the 5. gen a/c will also have new sensors, and they will have significantly less RCS and also less IR signature.
Also keep in mind that the main threat is often not from other a/c but from SAMs. Better sensor by itself will just to a minor extent reduce the threat from SAMs — then a combination of VLO and EW is probably more efficient.
I see only two ways forward:
1. switch to 5. gen a/c
2. combine with UCAVs and use the 4.5 gen fighters to locally controll the UCAV. This would probably favor twin-seat fighters.
LokePerhaps China.
Actually I doubt that – I had the impression that Brazil was a bit wary of China. It is an important customer etc., but still I think a lot of countries around the world are wondering how rapid China will develop and what China’s intentions are — how will they use their new economical, political and military powers?
Since they have now contacted the US and asked for better tech transfer deal it seems to me they are not moving closer to China, but rather considering to move closer to the US.
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