Loke– But not only AIP is important: When a submarine used to snort to recharge the battery it also refreshed the air on board. Now the snorting has been solved (partly) the next bottleneck is the air quality. CO2-scrubbers as used on nuclear subs are large and are consuming a lot of electricity, not suitable for an board AIP-submarine. The air quality is that much of an issue that in practice an AIP equipped submarine will still be snorting every 2 days or so to refresh the air. So not only AIP has to improve but also other systems iot make the AIP-submarine successful.
The Swedish Navy has operated submarines equipped with air independent propulsion for two
decades. This type of submarine can stay submerged for periods far longer than other nonnuclear
submarines are capable of. The air quality during longer periods of submersion has so far
not been thoroughly investigated. This study presents results for a number of air quality
parameters obtained during more than one week of continuous submerged operation. The
measured parameters are pressure, temperature, relative humidity, oxygen, carbon dioxide,
hydrogen, formaldehyde and other volatile organic compounds, ozone, nitrogen dioxide,
particulate matter and microbiological contaminants. The measurements of airborne particles
demonstrate that air pollutants typically occur at a low baseline level due to high air exchange
rates and efficient air-cleaning devices. However, short-lived peaks with comparatively high
concentrations occur, several of the sources for these have been identified. The concentrations of
the pollutants measured in this study do not indicate a build-up of hazardous compounds during
eight days of submersion. It is reasonable to assume that a substantial build-up of the
investigated contaminants is not likely if the submersion period is prolonged several times, which
is the case for modern submarines equipped with air independent propulsion.
Seems the Swedes can handle an 8-day submerged mission — and it seems to me that 8 days is not the maximum…
LokeYour patriotism or nationalism is commendable,but not appreciatable when selecting a fighter for the tomorrow needs.
That MRCA which IAF needs to replace those againg MIGs went down the river few years back.This MMRCA for which the trials have been taking place are to bumb the force strength and to plug that hole of ever going down numbers.
Many in MOD and IAF formally accepted the 62 number required to comfortably counter a chino-pak dual at any point of time.
And if people think that Gripen will have a place in IAF, then definitely they are day dreaming along with those calling a tejas-MKII as a part of MMRCA candidate from HAL.
What IAF needs here is a true multi-role capable of taking those nuclear bombing roles from Mirages.My recent quote of MRCA costing $30-40 billion says it all,like what exactly IAF is looking for in the 6 contenders.
If you are right why was Gripen invited in to the competition?
Also, is it a requirement that the MMRCA winner will be capable of carrying nukes? Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that integration of nuclear weapons is quite different from integration of conventional weapons?
Do you have any sources for the 30-40 billion figure by now?
LokeI can’t imagine that would be good for the aircraft. All the acidity is likely to cause problems with the electronics, avionics, etc.
Considering that–and Vikings–I’m going to have to go with Norway on this one.
Cheers,
Logan
Thanks, I wondered how many would pick up that one — excellent post Logan 😀
LokeNSM and JSM are going to need a hell of a lot of launches to punch through a TOR and S-300F level defense.
Something to consider 😉
That’s not what Kongsberg has been telling the Norwegian Navy and Air Force… NSM/JSM will be incredibly stealthy, in addition it has some other tricks that will make it not “punch” but rather slip through the defences…
LokeSo there you have it. Of all the nations possesing carriers/flattops I cannot see any specific requirement/need out there that the Sea Gripen can fulfill. I am not saying the concept of a Sea Gripen is not without merit but at the end of the day you need customers to pay for it.
Well, according to Saab the reason why they are revisiting the idea of Sea Gripen (it’s actually not a new idea) is that a “Potential customer” recently approached Saab and asked for information.
So either Saab is lying or your analysis ignored a potential customer….
LokeBill S suspended from reporting F-35 stories
In other news Bill has been instructed to not report on F-35 anymore…
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/05/aviation-week-suspends-bill-sw.html
LM says:
Lockheed Martin has not asked Aviation Week to take disciplinary action again Bill Sweetman nor have we asked that he be removed form reporting on the F-35 program or any other Lockheed Martin program. In fact on April 27 Bill and other members of the Aviation Week staff visited Lockheed Martin facilities in Fort Worth for briefings on the F-35 program. We have a longstanding professional relationship with the entire Aviation Week editorial staff, including Bill Sweetman and we continue to work openly with them on all programs, including F-35.
Although I think it’s great that people are critical I do have to admit that I have found some of Bills critisism to be too much. But I may be wrong — I don’t have much access to info.
LokeDon’t worry — the main purpose of this thread was to keep you guys too busy to ruin the other threads here… :diablo:
LokeMaua produces parts for supersonic fighter
Google translated:
In Maua, about 500 workers are involved in producing parts for a supersonic fighter plane. The company is the Imbrafiltro specializing in defense material and which currently manufactures the wings and cover the landing gear of the first four prototypes of the Gripen NG, which are being assembled in Sweden by Saab. The model dispute Lula’s preference for the new game of the FAB (Brazilian Air Force). The other two competitors are the French Rafale and the F-18 Hornet U.S.. The CEO of Inbrafiltro, Jairo Candide, spoke exclusively to the ABCD BIGGEST and ensures that if the Brazilian government to choose the Swedish aircraft to equip the FAB, only the group’s facilities in Maua will be extended five times, thus bringing the region definitely aerospace era.
ABCD Maior – The ImbraAerospace, a unit of the Imbrafiltro, T1 is part of the Consortium of the Swedish firm Saab, to manufacture some parts for the Gripen NG. Can you explain the group’s participation in this process?
Jairo Candide – The ImbraAerospace is responsible for all composite material, since its share of manufacturing to assembly, within the Consortium T1. Produce the two wings and landing gear covers. We participate in a bidding held that the Saab at the end of last year. The process of manufacturing the parts would be made in Brazil or India, and the group of five Brazilian companies won the bid. We are contracted to make four prototypes. With this, we have people working in Sweden and the ABCD.
ABCD Maior – What the Consortium T1 adds expertise in the group Imbrafiltro?
Jairo Candide – We are absorbing the latest technology, these wings are made of composite carbon. The Gripen NG really made the group change its technological level altogether. In this respect we are quite pleased with the work being done and the knowledge acquired. If we close business in Sweden, of course we do installations for a continuing series. Right now we are taking a huge technological leap.
ABCD Maior – What changes to the group Inbrafiltro the purchase of the Gripen NG by the federal government?
Jairo Candide – The purchase of hunting Swedish Brazilian government not only changes the context for our company, but there will be positive change throughout the country This aircraft has a potential market of about 300 aircraft over the next 20 years. We’re talking about producing in Brazil, only within the Consortium T1, somewhere around $ 7 million in Brazil and do theoretically $ 20 million. But that would involve shares of Embraer, which will also manufacture other components to the game. You can imagine what this means, the difference is brutal.
ABCD Maior – The purchase of Gripen NG for Brazil can boost other markets?
Jairo Candide – We no longer have only four prototypes, to reach 300. Every entrepreneur who invests an analysis of the potential market. There is a package that is the possible sale of the Gripen NG for Norway, Sweden itself, Kuwait and India, besides a host of other applications. We know that this aircraft is chosen by the coaches of the FAB, the greater performance, improved operating costs and be cheaper.
ABCD Staff – On some occasions the president Lula and Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, were in favor of the Rafale. What assessment can you do about this possible option?
Jairo Candide – If the government opted for another game will not have the same benefits. The Rafale, for example, is already a plane ready and not sold anywhere in the world today, and is an aircraft that is in the market for over 15 years. I believe that if the choice is made by a French fighter, there may even be knowledge transfer to Brazil, but not to apply in the production of aircraft within a technological package. The Gripen NG will transfer technology and a full market potential. This is the great gain of Swedes.
ABCD Maior – In your opinion, technology transfer will be the same if Brazil to buy F-18, the American Boeing, the airplane or Rafale, the French Dassault?
Jairo Candide – For these two aircraft are bidding on, everything that we can do are limited to the purchase of 36 fighters. Aircraft are operating in a market that is already occupied by other suppliers and not us the supplier of the production line. The opportunity we have in Swedish aircraft manufacturers of these parts is to be in Brazil, and what we do here will not be realized in any other place on earth. This is the position of the package and the Swedish industrial point of view is extremely important and attractive. The difference is a plan today to spend $ 40 million, for an array of U.S. $ 200 million.
ABCD Maior – Can you talk a little about the group’s activities in the Region as Inbrafiltro both in the country?
Jairo Candide – The Inbrafiltro is a group of five companies, all aimed at making material for defense or defense related issues. All units are located in the town of Maua. We will celebrate in June, 31 years of existence, so it is one of the oldest groups linked to this sector. Basically related to the theme of protection of life, we make vests, helmets, shields, armor vehicles ride and make the door of Embraer aircraft, among others. For this, we have a team of 500 employees.
http://www.mauavirtual.com.br/noticias_det.asp?id=18164
Thanks to Signatory at mp.net.
LokeAccording to Wikipedia 100% Brazilian bioethanol is priced at 3.88 UDS a gallon; is Hydrogen really much cheaper than that? Some sources says Hydrogen cost 84 USD “per gallon of gasoline equivalent” http://www.recoverybydiscovery.com/hydrogen.htm which to me seems more expensive and not cheaper than ethanol…
In 2009 worldwide ethanol production was 74 billion litres. How much would a sub use a year? I agree farmland is an issue — but that would not be because of a few subs, but rather because of an increasing number of cars (already in the millions) running on ethanol.
LokeDid you all miss the key word “removable”?
Now perhaps the French secret is that it’s “droppable”? By dropping the probe (like a tank or a bumb) voila you get a stealthy Rafale! The “drop probe” maneuver becomes thus:
1. flip upside down
2. dropp probe
3. flip back.
The point of dropping the probe while flying upside down is to avoid having the probe hitting the a/c of course.
Alternatively it could be made Ejectable (like a seat).
LokeAre you saying that the German subs are producing Hydrogen during their mission? I thought it was generated on land and stored on the sub?
LokeIt seems most of your critisism stems from: 1. focusing on outdated information (perhaps the Rafale F1/F2?) and 2. comparing that (outdated) Rafale to the future F-35.
This is wrong for two reasons; both because you compare yesterday’s fighter with the future F-35 but also because Rafale is a 4.5 gen a/c, and should not be compared to the F-35. If you want to compare Rafale to something why don’t you compare the Rafale to the SH, F-16 block 60, the Typhoon, and the SU-35?
Or if you insist on doing what you seem to be doing right now; Why don’t you compare the F-16A to F-35? Or the Spitfire to the F-22? That should also give you endless hours of fun, I would imagine.
LokeStop wasting your time with Brazil ;), the game is over there for the Gripen, you’ll only get frustration.
Switzerland or India looks better
I am not frustrated, I just post the latest news reports from Brazil, for your amusement…
My latest estimates for the Brazilian competition:
Rafale: 99%
SH: 0.5%
NG: 0.5%
It’s based on this:
Minister Nelson Jobim (Defence) said on Wednesday (5) in Sao Paulo that already chose the game that will equip the FAB (Brazilian Air Force) and will deliver an invitation to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva at the end next week. He is finishing writing the document on the bidding for the purchase of 36 aircraft of war.
Fighters from three countries are in competition, estimated at $ 10 billion: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing and the Swedish Gripen NG Saab.
– I am finishing to prepare an explanatory memorandum. I hit the president with the following: the Minister of Defence would not send for him three options for him to make a choice. The defense minister of the ministry manifested the option and that option would give his reasons.
Jobim said the document will be ready between the end of this week and early next week, but said that should the president make the announcement when he returned from a trip to Russia and Iran at the end of next week.
He also said that once in possession of the document prepared by the ministry, Lula will refer you for consultation on the National Defence Council and only then make your decision.
Jobim said that the price of the fighters was not the most important criterion for choice:
What are weighing the interests of the country. In other words, Brazil does not need to buy anything at a bargain price. We do not want banana, we want something that gives consistency to Brazil.
http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php?datan=06/05/2010&page=mostra_notimpol
Looks like 2010 will be a great year for Rafale!
LokeUAE should be able to realize it, just like they realized the F-16 block 60 using their oil money.
Is it justifiable? That to me is a political question. If you consider it from a pure “technical” POV, then the answer would be no, they should wait a few more years and get F-35 — however then they would rely 100% on US gear, and that seems to be against their policy. They could instead go for Pak FA, however I don’t know if they a) want to go Russian and b) can wait that long.
You might as well ask Why did France develop Rafale in the first place, why did they not just purchase American planes? It’s all due to politics of course.
Lokeexactly right and is probably why the rafale hasnt had an export customer in 10 years, yet a dozen major airforces have already lined up to buy the f-35
Rafale is an excellent 4.5 gen fighter. Most likely it will score several sales this year.
Look at how other (western) 4.5 gen fighters have sold:
Super Hornet: Only one export customer, Australia is using it as a stop gap for F-35, implying that if the F-35 had been available earlier the number of SH customers would have been… zero today just like for the Rafale.
F-16 block 60; Zero export customers. This is something that gets little attention. Whereas Block 50/52 has sold well, ML/UAE has so far not sold a single export F-16 block 60!!!
So, does the lousy sales numbers for SH and F-16 bl. 60 mean that they are crappy a/c? One cannot even use the “political” argument like for Rafale (which also works both ways, e.g. look at Brazil where Rafale most likely will win).
Rafale, SH, Typhoon, F-16 block 60-70, Gripen NG; all great a/c however sales prospects for most of them look rather bleak, and the winners of Brazil and India will most likely decide who will persist and who will “perish” in the coming years, is my guess.
Point is, F-35 will take over most of the market however I think there will be some niches:
1. Countries that cannot or will not get access to F-35 and cannot or will not go for Pak FA (e.g. Brazil)
2. Countries that don’t see the need for F-35 (they need something for air policing basically; F-35 is overkill, Gripen or F-16 is more than acceptable)
3. Countries that need a stop gap while waiting for F-35 or Pak FA (Australia, India, US Navy (recently ordered more SH) possibly Japan and perhaps S Korea and Israel)
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