oops, don’t open the Champagne bottles just yet..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0423599720100204?type=marketsNews

BRASILIA, Feb 4 (Reuters) – Brazil’s Defense Minister Nelson Jobim denied on Thursday that the country had reached an agreement to buy Rafale jets from France’s Dassault (AVMD.PA).

Jobim, who spoke at an event in the capital Brasilia, said the government was still undecided.

A local newspaper had earlier reported Brazil had agreed on a price to buy 36 Rafale jets. (Reporting by Carmen Munari; Writing by Raymond Colitt; Editing by Gerald E. McCormick

Incredible…

actually, what sounds weird is that they may engage in BVR conrontations while at least oen side doesn’t want to use its radar.

Now, think about it for a second: (from french side) you go against an oponent who:

– doesn’t want to use its radar
– is stealthy
– has no passive means to detect you (unless you light your own radar alerting your oponent’s RWR system, that is)
– in BVR

You have at your disposal:

– your radar, becoming obsolete, and having little et no chance to get a lock from a distance
– a passive tool to scan the sky, detect, identify and lock targets unnoticed (OSF)

Now, knowing your oponent will never see you if you stay passive (simply because he won’t use his radar) and that you can see it in IR, why would you turn on your own radar which would only work against you until it’s too late? It just doesn’t make sense.

Providing you were stupid enough to do it and had your a$$ handed on a plate to you, would you come out publically and brag that you “only got in their sights once” out of 6 encouters?

Finally, on the USAF side: you don’t want anyone to spy on your radar, do you accept a confrontation in BVR against an oponent that can use passive detection and pass under your nose unnnoticed for as long as you don’t turn your radar on?

The more you think of it and the less that story makes sense…

Well if they are training, why not?

If one can imagine a scenario where F-22 may encounter 4.5 gen fighters that are using their radars, then it could perhaps make sense to train for it?

Perhaps you should read the thread about DACT that somebody posted the other day…

Congratulations to the French!

A great plane has finally scored it’s first export, it seems.

At the same time a pity Gripen did not win this — Saab has worked hard and had deserved this as much as anybody…

I also hope that this will not end as the Austrian purchase of Eurofighter — Lula will not implement this, and unless FAB gets a significant boost in their budgets over the next 30 years, they may get an operational problem…

what surprised me a bit was this (from mp.net):

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/brasil/fc0402201002.htm

President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and Minister Nelson Jobim (Defense) hit the gavel for the French Rafale fighter. The decision was made after the manufacturer, Dassault, reduced from $ 8.2 billion (U.S. $ 15.1 billion) to $ 6.2 billion (U.S. $ 11.4 billion) the final price of the package of 36 aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force.
Even with the reduction, the French fighter jets have much higher price than competitors. According to Folha, the proposed model Gripen NG, the Swedish Saab, was $ 4.5 billion, and the F-18 Super Hornet, the U.S. Boeing, U.S. $ 5.7 billion.
Besides the cost of the package, which includes aircraft, weapons, logistics and cost of technology transfer, Dassault has estimated that the maintenance of aircraft for 30 years will cost $ 4 billion.
The figures were revised after President Lula to announce in advance the victory of the Rafale in September. The unit price, where estimate was lower then for all competitors because the package did not provide for benefits included in the renegotiation, as the cost of the Company to manufacture the game in the future.
Americans and Swedes say that there was also a change in trading conditions. Selection for the Air Force, whose report was finalized in December, prices were closed and non-negotiable. The document, the Rafale was bottom (Gripen led the list).
With the reduction produced subsequently by France, the price would be subject to future changes, information that is not confirmed by the government.
The reduction of $ 2 billion in the French offer was completed on Saturday when Jobim passed through Paris on his return from a trip to Israel. Gave the endorsement after meeting with Brazilian Ambassador José Mauricio Bustani.
The Secretary of Economy and Finance of the Air Force, Brigadier Aprígio Azevedo, went to Paris to participate in the negotiation. FAB is who bears the costs of maintenance.

The intention of Jobim, as told Folha in January, was personally re-evaluate the criteria in the technical report of the FAB and after redistribute the system of weights for each, which could change the outcome, take the report to the president himself. The idea has not changed because the format of the report of the FAB was very hard, and the Rafale was not the best in any of the criteria.
Thus, Jobim studied the report, on more than ten months by Copac (Commission Program Coordinator Combat Aircraft), and made the day before yesterday, an exposure to Lula to justify the choice of the Rafale, decided several months ago.
Jobim announced the decision to Air Force Commander Brigadier Juniti Saito, who, reportedly expressed “dismay” but determined to follow the political line of the Planalato and Defense.
After scrapping to change the weights of the criteria of FAB, Jobim will defend the choice of going against the Rafale technical arguments and months of studying, traveling and evaluations of airmen Copac.

Lula’s decision on the choice is sovereign under the Constitution. Government and Congress must approve funding, and the Czech TCU accounts. It is a decision difficult to reverse after signed.
The basis of justification will be that the F-18 is American and Gripen NG has U.S. components like the engine, and both leave Brazil vulnerable-the U.S. has already prevented from selling the Embraer Super Tucano aircraft to Venezuela because they had American scores . In the case of the Gripen NG, Jobim will say that the plane is only one project and includes parts of different countries, which could require multiple international negotiations for resale.
The Air Force argues that the engine is “merely mechanical. The avionics (electronics) and the weapon system ( “communication” between the aircraft and their weapons), but these could suffer vetoes and restrictions. No technical aspect could thwart the government to close with France, decided in the context of the presidential palace, Defense and Foreign Ministry classified strategic partnership.

So Rafale did not win on any of the criteria??

Another interesting piece (from mp.net, seems to be from Valor Econômico):

Jobim price drops to the choice of hunting

Brasilia

Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said it will deliver to President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, after Carnival, the explanatory memorandum to the position of Defense about buying a batch of 36 fighters for the Air Force (FAB). The analysis of Defense, said Jobim, not focus on price, but two aspects of “fundamental”: technology transfer and training national (domestic production). Lula’s preference is for French Rafale fighter from Dassault.

“In first place is not a bidding process,” he said Jobim. “There is a bidding process you do not have the obligation to choose the lowest price.” It is, in fact, according to the minister, a selection process and, in this case, “the price is a key component.” The price is the main disadvantage of the Rafale in relation particularly to its competitor Swedish Gripen NG, manufactured by Saab.

The minister confirmed for the first time that the final report of the FAB on the purchase of fighter stated preference for the Swedish Gripen. But according to Jobim, the Air Force worked “with parameters that are consistent with the National Defense Strategy,” whose texts were only recently sent to Congress. Jobim made it clear that the American Boeing, which decided to contraofensiva last-minute attempt to postpone the purchase, they have no chance in the race. “The U.S. embargoes portfolio is very rich,” he joked.

About the claim that the fighter plane is a much cheaper, Jobim said that the ministry has for the game are Swedish budgets. “I do not know if it will happen.” For it is like building a house: almost never wears out just what was budgeted in the project construction.

“Decision on the subject of this nature is not proactive, it is a process,” Jobim said. At the end of the process, three companies were eventually selected for the sale of the lot of 36 fighters to the Air Force, one of the largest business for dispute in the world, estimated at $ 4 billion and $ 6 billion, according to the package offered by each manufacturer: Dassault (Rafale), Saab (Gripen NG) and Boeing, which entered the match with his best brand: the F-18.

Jobim dropped the opening of a new procurement process for the inclusion of Russia. Russians participated in the first stage of the process with the fighter jets. Jobim’s argument regarding the announced new version of Russian fighter jets is the same as it has in relation to the Americans. “The Russians do not transfer technology. Period.” On the trip to Moscow, Jobim addressed the issue of technology transfer, but the Russians only had to deal with the matter after the close of business.

Jobim ruled out the purchase of fighter jets to be the next government, as occurred at the end of the term of former President Fernando Henrique Cardoso. But he warns against the fact that after Lula’s decision, after hearing the National Defense Council, the process enters a new stage: the negotiation of the contract.

“One thing are the proposals that are made, another is how this works in practice. It may even be an impasse at the time if you are discussing the contract,” he said. This phase change negotiators, who would become the National Treasury and the FAB. The discussion under contract for the purchase of French submarines took at least three months.

Jobim has an argument ready for the eventual disposal of the Swedish game. “The FAB working with weights that do not coincide with the National Defense Strategy, as they are old things.” He explained that the model in which the Air Force support its opinion comes from Fernando Henrique Cardoso government. “Now look at this thing basically the transfer of technology and national capacity building is the fundamental vector.”

Jobim, whose reasoning suggests that indicate the Rafale to the president, shields now because of their strategic decision to be made in 15 days: “When we start to think in terms of A, B, C, because one is being like this and other being roasted, this is something small country, we no longer are. ”

So as Hammer said it was also the final FAB report that preferred Gripen. Oh well, it does not matter now. Congrats to Dassault 🙂

Signatory recently posted this at mp:

Sweden’s ambassador to Brazil met with Brazilian DefMin Nelson Jobim on Monday. No idea what for.

A word for LOKE :

Also, my friend, there is no way someone not deluded in any way
would believe that the Gripen ( even NG if and then ) is superior
to the Rafale. Of course this may still NOT make it the first choice
for a given airforce ( Nicaragua, Palau and the Vatican spring to mind! ).

Rafale F3 seems to be quite superior to Gripen C/D.

However Gripen NG will as mentioned many times before, likely “reduce the gap” in many ways between Gripen and Rafale. What remains is mainly things like payload, number of pylons, and TWR.

Anyway, my point is that in an evaluation it is not about which plane is “superior”. In an evaluation they do not compare the a/c. They have a loong list of requirements and they check each a/c against that list of requirements. And those a/c than meet the requirements can be in theory be bought. If all meet the requirements then they need some way to decide which is better suited. In this particular case the FAB seems to have used the cost of each a/c to reach their conclusion, perhaps because they believe that Rafale would be so expensive that they would not be able to get the number of a/c they want for their big country.

Also note that whereas Rafale IMHO may be the best 4.5 multirole fighter today, it will not be “superior” to Gripen NG in all respects. The Gripen Radar will cover an impressive scan volume due to the swash plate, and should be possible to use as an “mini-AWACS” — a 1000-element antenna will have quite some range. Also, it will be interesting to see the IRST solution that Selex and Saab are working on.

One advantage of developing this now is that they can used the latest in electronics.

So to summarize if the FAB cares less about maximum payload and TWR then the difference in capabilities may not be significant to them (and even go in the favor of Gripen NG)

Of course if you sell to UAE that could again put Rafale ahead of Gripen NG some years into the future.

Yes you’re right. Before it was a faked outdated report leaked in a main newspaper, now it’s just pathetic arguments about documentations of the Mirage III era in a blog…

Funny, when a French pilot writes something in a blog it is taken as the Absolute Truth, when a Brazilian pilot gives his personal opinion in a blog it is “pathetic arguments”. He has clearly had some bad experiences with the French, and he gives some examples, that’s all. Perhaps Dassault never thought Brazil would become an important country and “forgot” to give them VIP treatment like UAE? :rolleyes:

It is also funny that after complaining for years that Rafale often won the “technical evaluation” but lost “due to politics”, now the situation is reversed in Brazil! The FAB puts Rafale last, and it’s the politicians that put it first.

Rafale is a fantastic aircraft, I like it a lot! However it seems very expensive, and even more so if they want all the ToT.

What “fake reports” are you talking about, did you not read what Hammer wrote?

Haavarla, I’ve got some good news & bad.

The good news is your govt. was correct in rejecting the Gripen as its future fighter. The bad is I don’t think the F-35’s up to the job either.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a021e786e-04be-426b-ad32-dcbb54b90d00&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Whut, the mighty Gripen NG is not up to it!?

Actually I suggested quite some time ago that Norway should:

1. Buy (or lease!) Gripen NG
2. Develop a 5. gen PAK FA killer together with Sweden, South Korea (and perhaps Brazil? :cool:)
3. phase over to the new a/c if/when Russia starts flexing her muscles with PAK FA :p

The reason for suggesting this was that I suspected that “the F-35 would not be up to it”.

The politicians did not listen to me, of course. They never listen to what I say. 🙁