I think the schedule points out to circa 2014/15. That’s when the M-2000s are expected to be retired.
I think the only thing in favour of the Gripen now is the low cost. It’s not so mush the cost of acquisition, but that of maintenance. Some people fear that with future governments may restrain the budget of the armed forces again, making the low cost Gripen easier to maintain in the air. After all, how good is a capable aicraft if you can’t keep it in the air? Also FAB had good impressions from the swedish teams in the cooperation to develop the R-99.
The Gripen AESA could actually have a slightly better range than the Rafale (The Selex radar has 1000 TR elements, the Rafale actually somewhat less — 850 or so?) and with the Swash-plate design you get a significantly larger search volume.
Gripen is small, but it’s avionics (eletronics) will be top-notch:
http://www.nanowerk.com/news/newsid=12731.php
The initial core objective of the U.S.-Swedish alliance is to identify improved technologies and systems to manufacture electronic micro-components up to 300 times smaller than current industry standards.
…
New miniaturization technologies arising from the alliance’s project will be used in the Gripen’s nano-equipment programs, which aim to significantly reduce the size of electronic components for the next-generation JAS 39 Gripen aircraft.
The IRST system of Saab has also been praised as top-notch. Another advantage is that Brazil already operates Erieye which was developed to work hand-in-hand with the Gripen…
I am not sure if NG has been mentioned as favorite of the FAB for the FX2; however for the FX process, Gripen also participated and AFAIK it was seen as a favorite by the FAB. Probably because it gave “the most bang for the bucks”.
A supersonic missile, e.g. Brahmos, SS-N-22 Sunburn, maybe even a hypersonic missile like the Fasthawk is far superior to a subsonic one, e.g. Harpoon, Tomahawk, AS-15 Kent.
The advantage of speed is critical nowadays on today’s 21st Century battlefields, where time-sensitive targets have to be hit.
A Fasthawk can cover the same distance in eight minutes as the Tomahawk can do the same in one hour.
If you read some of the earlier posts in this thread you’ll notice one key advantage to the modern subsonic cruise missiles: Stealth. Harpoons are old news, I believe US surface ships don’t even install them anymore. You would probably want something like this instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Strike_Missile
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JASSM
Well, this author seems to be sceptical to subsonics in general and JASSM in particular:
After 13 long years in development, the $7.1 billion Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM) was reported still to be missing its target 40 percent of the time in early 2009 testing.
This problematic program was in jeopardy two years ago, and at the 2007 Paris Air Show, the head of U.S. Air Force procurement was evaluating Europe’s Taurus and Storm Shadow cruise missiles as possible JASSM replacements.
JASSM’s test failure rate since December 2006 had been 42 percent, along with cost overruns reported to Congress. Of roughly 600 JASSMs then fielded, more than 500 were estimated to have flaws lurking in their GPS guidance systems. JASSM barely survived cancellation by Congress in 2008.
Fast forward to 2009: The Air Force is withholding production funding pending the results of last month’s scheduled Lot 6 testing, which has now been delayed to allow for replacement of still more faulty components.
We’ve been there before: Problems two years ago included engine, warhead, power, electrical and other systems, and detonation failure. In a UPI Internet Outside View Webcast on Oct. 25, 2007, Steven Barnoske, Lockheed Martin’s JASSM program director, promised that “technical teams have dissected data from test failures, identified root causes and developed corrective action plans that we have validated in a series of laboratory and field tests.”
But since then, 50 percent of Lot 5 testing failures has stemmed from poor quality signal cabling, with another 25 percent from more faulty fuses. During one of the most recent tests, a JASSM well into its strike profile suddenly departed controlled flight and crashed.
“We have been unable to duplicate [the anomaly] at this time,” said Col. Steve Demers, the Air Force’s JASSM program manager, in an interview in the July 27 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology.
Now, consider that a missile originally expected to cost roughly $400,000 is currently going for almost $1 million apiece, despite its dismal performance. Over the last two years, the diminution in failure rate has been a minuscule 2 percentage points, from 42 percent in 2007 to 40 percent in 2009. Meanwhile, the total program cost has risen from $5.8 billion estimated in 2007 to $7.1 billion in 2009. For what? For more promises, and a growing stockpile of faulty missiles that are already obsolete.
Obsolete? Barnoske asserted, “It is … the only cruise missile in the world to incorporate state-of-the-art stealth technologies.”
While JASSM may have some stealth qualities, it cruises at Mach 0.8 and can be acquired visually. In one test flight, according to the July 2000 issue of Armed Forces Journal International, it took 22 minutes to cover 210 miles. It would have been an easy target for layered, networked, multisensor air defense systems employing Russian-made S-300PMU, SA-10D surface-to-air missiles and their SA-N-6 ship-based counterparts. These and more advanced point-defense systems are now deployed by Russia, China, Iran and others.
Question: What has happened to the cutting-edge research and development at which we once excelled? Why are we attempting to produce this increasingly unaffordable, flawed subsonic standoff cruise missile when France, Russia, China and India have fielded far more advanced and more survivable supersonic equivalents?
A partial sampling: France’s inertially guided, ramjet-powered Mach 2-3 ASMP standoff (200-mile-range) nuclear armed cruise missile entered service 23 years ago.
India’s air-launchable Mach 2.5+ BrahMos ramjet land-attack and antiship cruise missile (a Russia-India joint venture), with 80- to 200-mile range depending on altitude, carries a 660-pound warhead and employs preset inertial navigation with alternating inertial/active radar terminal guidance. Being considered for export to South Africa, Chile, Malaysia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, it is in service with India’s Navy and Army.
Then there’s Russia’s Kh-41 Moskit, launchable from variants of the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker supersonic fighter jet in service with both China and Russia. Moskit is a version of Russia’s highly respected SS-N-22 Sunburn, a sea-skimming Mach 2.5 carrier-busting ramjet cruise missile with a range of 100 miles and a 660-pound high explosive warhead (with alternate 200-kiloton nuclear capability).
Incredibly fast and maneuverable on the deck, it needs no stealth enhancement. Operational for 25 years in various forms, it has been deployed by Russia, China and Iran. According to Combat Fleets of the World, it is a “very sophisticated weapon against which other navies have yet to develop an effective countermeasure.” The United States included.
Meanwhile, out of the program goal of 4,900 missiles, 779 JASSMs have been delivered but many await new fuses and other replacement parts. Further testing (and production) cannot occur until recent glitches are fixed, and even then our obsolete JASSM will approach its targets at perhaps one-third the speed of the foreign counterparts mentioned above.
What we need is a supersonic standoff missile that is, like the Moskit, ground- or wave-hugging and highly maneuverable in a Mach 2.5 terminal phase.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4266173&c=FEA&s=COM
I am a bit surprised about his negativity towards stealthy subsonic missiles.
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LOL. Russian sales brochures which claim to have long range anti-stealth capability are talking about their abilities against Gen 4 airplanes like F-15E, F-16C, F-18C/E/F, Rafale and Typhoon which have RAM/conductive coatings and FSS. But those airplanes are not state-of-the-art in stealth which are several orders of magnitude lower in RCS.
Perhaps… The S-400 radar system is supposed to be able to detect a 1m2 object 400km away. If the RCS of F-35 is 0.001 (and if I did my math right) then the S-400 should be able to detect the F-35 at a distance of 71 km.
But I guess the tracking distance is the more relevant here… And I have no idea what that would be?
The SPY-1D radar is said to be able to track a golf ball sized object at a distance of 165 km!
http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/2004/MAR_JUN_2004/PAGE24-25.pdf
While the SPY-1D has been designed primarily to detect theater ballistic missiles (TBMs) at ranges in excess of 500 kilometers, it also can track golf ball-sized targets at ranges in excess of 165 kilometers.
What’s the RCS of a golf ball ?
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The F 35 will have a long range, high-precision, stealthy weapon: the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) based on Norvegian NSM (Naval Strike Missile). It’s a mini-cruise missile, it will offer a ~ 100 Nmiles range, and will be able to attack double digit SAMs.
OTOH, the JASSM will be used be heavy bombers (B1, B2, B 52) and non-stealthy F 18 E and F 16.
Yes, I am familiar with the JSM 🙂 Unlike the JASSM, the USAF has not (yet) ordered a single JSM, hopefully they will. The JSM will actually have a range of “more than 150 nm”, whereas the NSM has a range of “more than 100 nm”. Apart from the range one important difference between JASSM and JSM is the size of the warhead. The JASSM can attack hardened targets whereas the JSM is less suitable for such operations.
THe JASSM will also be integrated on the F-35, so I assume it will be used. The F16 will be phased out. USAF does not fly F18E, that’s the Navy guys.
Anyway my original question was not “why are they buying JASSM” but rather “why are they buying so many JASSM” given that in a few years most USAF missions will be done by the stealthy F-35 that can operate much cheaper stuff than JASSM. Also, with the stand-off range of JASSM you simply don’t need the F-35 to launch it.
I have done some digging and found that in conjunction with the Iran/Israel situation and the possibility of Iran obtaining S-300, it seems that LM has stated that F-35 can “defeat S-300 in combat”.
Interestingly I have not found much claims that S-300 system will be able to “handle” VLO targets. OTOH there are several claims that S-400 can handle stealth targets;
http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.52/system_detail.asp
The S-400 system can intercept and destroy airborne targets, including stealth aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles…
and I have not found any claims from LM that F-35 can defeat the S-400. Presumably the S-400 will be a much tougher nut to crack for the F-35 than the older S-300 systems.
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JDAM has poor cross range capability. To employ JDAM against targets defended by an advanced SAM (S-300/400) would mean the airplane, including F-35, would have to be well within the SAM’s lethal radius. JASSM provides the ability to strike heavily defended hard targets from outside the reach of SAM protection, or strike the S-300/400 batteries themselves. Once SDB II becomes available, JASSM will no longer be needed for the DEAD role. But SDB II is still years away from operation.
Interesting… In the (now infamous) Norwegian fighter selection process, one of the scenarios they looked at was the capability to “operate in the vincinity of double-digit SAMS”; when this was published most people (Saab included) seemed to believe that this was a “nice-to-have” and not “must-have” feature.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/GRIPEN042508.xml
Part of the Norwegian evaluation scenario in support of its fighter choice included contender aircraft being tasked with destroying targets within a surface-to-air missile (SAM) system environment based on highly capable double-digit SAMs. The simulation scenario, however, called for the aircraft to be operated inside the engagement ranges of all SAMs with the weapons of choice restricted to the GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition and GBU-10/12 Paveway II weapons.
Anyway, Gripen was not allowed to use stand-off weapons, and failed these simulations, as you would expect, whereas F-35 dropped the JDAMS and Paveways and returned to base (in the simulations).
A pity the USAF did not ask the Norwegian evaluation committe for their F-35 simulation results before they ordered all those expensive JASSMs :rolleyes:
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AFAIK, the Anzac top weight problem came from adding new equipment to a design which was already close to its limits. The Valour class seems to be safely within the hull limits – but might not be if you added SPY-1 & 64 ESSM.
Note I specified the SPY-1K (which is designed for a 2600 ton corvette).
64 ESSM was perhaps a bit too much — but 32 may be doable?
http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/stellent/groups/public/documents/legacy_site/cms01_048612.pdf
26-30 tons, 32 ESSM missiles included.
It seems the Valour class can take 32 Umkhonto:
Kamerman said the ship was designed to “take punishment” and was designed for inherent growth. It had spaces with all the necessary fittings for rapid fitting of additional capabilities without needing modification. This meant that the ship could increase its surface to air missile outfit from 16 to 32 launch cells in a few hours. It is expected that the class will be substantially upgraded over the ships’ 30-40 year life. Kamerman has said the ships had plenty of space to accommodate new equipment and weapons and was designed to easily allow the removal of outdated technology through easily accessible hatches
Presumably 32 Umkhonto weighs much less than 32 ESSM?
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If rafale wins over gripen, i think that ither a sweet TOT, like nuclear subs, or really really good price, is in play.
I actually hope Gripen would win the Brazil competition, but I strongly suspect that they want a carrier-capable jet; why else would they shortlist SH and Rafale and exclude F16 and Eurofighter?
If the Rafale price is too high, they may consider to navalize Gripen, but…wait, that’s probably going to cost more than the expensive Rafales.
Anyway, it would be good for Dassault to get their first export.
L
If this happens the production probably will not stop at 36 fighters. The Brazilian navy already seems to be in love with the Rafale, so if it is chosen for the FX-2 program there is little doubt that it will also be picked up as a replacement for the A-4 Skyhawk.
Cheers,
Can Rafale operate from the smallish Sao Paolo?
I agree that in any case Rafale is probably the front runner — Rumors say Brazil wants to build a new aircraft carrier — consider that Eurofighter and F-16 was not on the shortlist, and neither are easily converted to naval operations. Some people claim Gripen may be easier to convert.
Still, Rafale seems the front runner in Brazil. My uneducated guess is it will win in Brazil, not SH, for political reasons. It seems Brazil wants to keep some “independence” of the US.
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More F-35 delays?
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=cqmidday-000003175266
An internal Pentagon oversight board has found that the Joint Strike Fighter program is two years behind its publicly announced schedule, congressional aides familiar with the findings said Thursday.
The Pentagon’s Joint Estimating Team, established to independently oversee the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, determined that the plane won’t be able to move out of the development phase and into full production until 2016, rather than in 2014 as the program office has said. That’s assuming there are no further problems with the program, which has already faced cost overruns and schedule delays
“In every parameter and in every respect, the Joint Program Office’s projections were always a hell of a lot rosier than what the Joint Estimate Team found,” said one Senate aide who was briefed on the findings.
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Sign, Gripen – NG is stated to have upto 10% more thrust than before i.e. upto 87 kN or 88 kN only. Tejas MK.2 can have either EF-2000 (90 kN) or GE-F414 (100 kN). The RFP for these two engines was reported to have been sent last week to EADs and GE.
As regards avionics, weapons, EW suite, RCS, radiolinks, upgradeability etc. it will be equivalent to Gripen – NG.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90432
NG will have the F414, which implies more than 20% increase in thrust.
Are your sources informing you that the MK.2 will have “avionics, weapons, EW suite, RCS, radiolinks, upgradeability etc. equivalent to NG” as reliable as those informing you that NG will have a mere 10% increase in thrust over the current version?
Or perhaps you have no sources ?
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LCA Mk2, empty weight 6.5T, MTOW 13.5T
Even lighter than the Gripen NG (empty 7 tons, MTOW 16.5 tons)
NG will be 7.7% heavier in empty weight and MTOW 22% higher… if both companies can deliver according to current spec.
LCA Mk2 to be developed by 2012.
Are people optimistic that this can actually happen by 2012?
When will they start produce the current LCA? Or has production already started?
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Supersonic Bloodhound on the trail of land-speed record
A rocket will boost the car to around 1200 kilometres per hour, (Mach 1) while a Eurofighter jet engine will provide more controllable thrust to coax it up to 1600 km/h. Finally, the car is equipped with a V12 petrol engine to pump the fuel and provide electrical and hydraulic power to the jet and rocket.
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I guess that you are not serious…
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/aviation/salon-du-bourget-2009/videos.html
there is a good dozen 9G turn in this year demo as the demo pilot comments attest it…Cola which understand french can attest it. Here you are simply losing credibility…
I am actually a bit surprised to hear that they do many 9g turns in a demo — not because I don’t think the Rafale is not up to it (I am sure it is!!!) but because I believed there was a real risk that the pilot can black out at 9g.
Perhaps I am wrong?
What kind of g-suit are Rafale pilots using? AFAIK I think I heard once that one of the major advantages the Typhoon pilots had on other pilots was not a much more powerful aircraft that can pull more gs but actually a g-suit that allows to pull more g’s without the pilot blacking out. Meaning, that if a Rafale pilot had the same suit the Rafale pilot should be able to fly more aggressively.
One alternative is of course to fly agressively and accept the risk… Or perhaps the French have a better process of selecting pilots that have an ultra low risk of blacking out at 9G? Or do they have a very good g-suit? Perhaps the same as the Typhoon pilots?
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Czech pilots in Baltics three times in action
Siauliai – Czech Jas-39 Gripen fighter planes have taken off three times to protect the Baltic countries’ air space since they flew in in the area earlier this year, Jan Pejsek, from the Czech Defence Ministry, said.
He was referring to Jaroslav Mika, commander of the contingent of the Czech air force.
“Since the operational deployment we have flown 170 hours and we have been three times in action. For the time being we have been fulfilling our tasks without any problems,” Mika said according to a ministry press release.
The Czech Republic is the 14th NATO country to protect the air space of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It is now halfway through its mission.
On September 1, the German air force with Eurofighters will take over from the Czechs.
“The Czech Gripens are fulfilling their mission perfectly. We will have to make a decision on what to do further when their lease [from Sweden] expires in 2015. But we know already now that we want to have a supersonic air force in the future as well,” Czech Defence Minister Martin Bartak said in Lithuania today, according to Pejsek.
http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/zpravy/czech-1pilots-in-baltics-three-times-in-action/384600
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