Loke2. Money: Besides the higher price of French weapons, the annual maintenance cost of ROCAF for 56 Mirage 2000-5 today is almost two times of the annual maintenance cost of ROCAF for 146 F-16 A/B Block20.
Do you mean per plane? Or does it cost twice as much to maintain 56 Mirage than 146 F-16 A/B!? That would mean they are roughly 4 times as expensive per plane?
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LokeI think you’re trying to read into his statement. The F-15SE isn’t competing for business with the F-35 “partner” nations only, but in any market where the F-35 might be sold. He said that there won’t be a less stealthy export variant, and that’s how I’m reading it till I see LM mention such a thing.
LM does not decide the export rules, the US authorities do.
There may be an agreement regarding the partner nations that allow them to get the “full stealth” version of the F-35; but that will not apply to all buyers of F-35. Look at all the countries that currently operate F-16: Do you really believe the US politicians would like all those countries to get access to all the capabilities of the US version of the F-35? After reading a few things about the F-35 I have become convinced that it will be something very special compared to all existing fighters (with the notable exception of F-22). I simply cannot see that the US will export such an incredible aircraft to the whole world without some (or a lot of ) restrictions in capabilities to some countries.
We, the partners (who also happen to be very close allies to the US) may get the “real deal”. For the rest of the world; perhap a few of them will, but not all.
The only alternative I can see would be to refuse selling F-35 to a large list of countries. However that would have a negative effect on the unit cost…
So expect to see a “dumbed-down” version of the F-35 in many countries. I think that makes a lot of sense, and reduces the risk to the US and her allies.
That’s how I am viewing this until the US authorities say something different. 🙂
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LokeGripen NG to Switzerland?
In Switzerland, “a key issue is cooperation and the ability to offer a program that has a future.” With the decision being somewhat delayed, Saab is considering whether to pitch the Gripen NG in the competition. “At the outset the requirement was for an aircraft that was already operational,” Lehander says – but, he goes on to add, “the Swedish air force’s plans are getting firmer.”
Also some info on the Demo:
The Gripen Demo itself is currently on the ground after notching up more than 80 sorties in a year of testing. In the fall, flight tests will resume with a demonstrator radar from Selex – not Thales as originally planned – the new missile approach warning system, satcom and the NG’s bigger external fuel tanks.
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LokeFrom the Military Aviation News Around the World Thread.
Yes, it has been stated many times that the partners F-35 will have the same “stealth” as the US F-35. Which is good news for Norway 🙂
One question remains: What about those countries that are not partner countries? I think there will actually be an export version of F-35 that will be exported to the non-partner countries… And for many of those countries they will have less stealth than the US (and partner) F-35…
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LokeRaven radar equipped Gripen to fly by year-end
In late March Saab announced a teaming agreement with Selex Galileo to develop the ES-05 Raven active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for the Gripen Next Generation fighter program. Selex Galileo is also the lead in the Euroradar consortium developing the Captor radar for the Eurofighter, while Saab Microwave Systems (formerly Ericsson) builds the mechanically scanned PS-05/A radar currently installed in the Gripen.
The Raven builds on the programs of both companies, including the antenna technology developed for Selex Galileo’s Vixen AESA family and ongoing PS-05/A development work. The radar has around 1,000 transmit/receive modules, mounted on an angled swashplate.
Swashplate technology allows the radar to be repositioned so that it scan a wider volume of sky than if it was fixed. Saab quotes a scan angle of 100 degrees from the centerline, allowing ES-05 to see targets behind the so-called “3-9 line.” The angled positioning of the antenna also helps to reduce frontal radar cross section.
A developmental version of the Raven is due to fly before the end of this year in the Gripen Demo aircraft. The Demo is a one-off test aircraft intended to de-risk the key technologies for the Gripen NG, including increased fuel capacity achieved through repositioning the main undercarriage, new avionics, additional stores pylons and the General Electric F414G engine.
Under the initial Gripen Demo program, Thales supplied an AESA antenna for the aircraft, based on the technology developed for the RBE2 AA radar for the Rafale. The Thales antenna was originally due to fly in the Demo this spring, but following ground trials was found to be unsatisfactory for the Gripen.
Meanwhile, the Gripen Demo continues its test campaign, and by mid-May the aircraft had flown 80 times. A key milestone was achieved in late January when the aircraft supercruised (sustained supersonic flight without afterburner) at more than Mach 1.2. Various stores configurations have been tested and the results have been very positive.
NG for India and Brazil
The Gripen NG is being offered to both India and Brazil for their current fighter competitions, both bids including the Raven AESA and Meteor missile capability. Saab is competing in India for a 126-aircraft order, of which 108 will be built locally. Evaluation of the six competing aircraft by two parallel Indian teams begins later this year.Brazil is initially looking at a 36-aircraft purchase for its FX2 requirement, although the figure could ultimately climb to around 120. A best and final offer was submitted earlier this month, with a decision expected in the second quarter of next year, leading to an in-service date of 2014.
One area where the Gripen is believed to have the edge in Brazil is the lack of restrictions on the technology it can transfer. “Handing over source-code is natural to us [Sweden]: we know what it’s like to want to be independent,” said Bob Kemp, Gripen International’s sales and marketing director. “Brazil is looking for a strategic partnership, and part of our offset is that we can offer participation in the NG development program.” The Gripen NG is at just the right point in its development to bring in a partner such as Brazil. The Raven radar has been approved for export, with Selex Galileo owning its own codes.
There are other synergies: Brazil operates a dispersed base concept similar to that pioneered by the Swedish air force, and also employs the same AEW system (Erieye), for which datalinks are already fully integrated. Brazil is at the heart of a growing nonaligned partnership (the IBSA group, with India and South Africa) into which Saab has already made significant inroads through the sale of the Gripen to South Africa. A partnership with Brazil could possibly lay the foundation for future fighter development.
Away from Brazil and India, the Gripen is competing aggressively in a number of campaigns. The defeat in neighboring Norway set the company back, and there is a need to restore confidence. Saab has publicized the discrepancies it sees in the way the evaluation was conducted and its conclusions (particularly with regard to cost calculations), and this has become an election issue in Norway itself.
Elsewhere, the Gripen is pitched against the Eurofighter and Rafale to replace Switzerland’s F-5s. A decision was originally due to be taken this summer, but has been deferred by the Swiss government until next year. The government has defined a requirement to be fulfilled, rather than a number of aircraft. Figures of between 22 and 33 have been touted. “How green is your fighter?” is one area that is important to the Swiss. “We see environmental issues increasingly raised in the RFIs,” Kemp told AIN. “In Switzerland and the Netherlands especially…and we think it’s a good thing.”
The Netherlands is looking for 85 aircraft to replace its F-16s, and is a JSF industrial partner. However, Saab questions whether the air force’s ambitions match national policy, and suggests that the Gripen is more in line. Denmark (48 aircraft), where cost is a major issue, is another country that falls into the same category. There also has been active requests for information on the Gripen from Bulgaria (16), Croatia (12), Greece (40+), Romania (48) and Slovakia (14).
Some new opportunities to emerge recently are Malaysia (18 aircraft to replace MiG-29s), Argentina (Mirage replacement), Ecuador, Qatar and Oman. The UK–already a Gripen “operator” through the long-term deal with the Empire Test Pilots School–is examining the potential of establishing a dissimilar air combat training unit, for which the Gripen would be ideal.
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Lokehttp://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSTRE55G1UR20090617′
PARIS (Reuters) – Eurofighter believes Turkey has a strategic need for its combat jets but expects an agreement to take at least two years, Chief Executive Enzo Casolini told Reuters at the Paris Air Show on Wednesday.
“We think Turkey is a country that’s right for two platforms, like Italy and the UK have done. That is, JSF for ground attack and Eurofighter for air superiority,” Casolini said, referring to the Lockheed Martin Corp-built (LMT.N) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
“We’re not close to a deal yet, we are still working on it. I think that it will take at least a couple of years,” Casolini said.
The chief executive added that Eurofighter was waiting for news from the government in Romania on a possible deal for 48 combat jets but said: “I don’t know if this will happen before the presidential elections.”
The Eurofighter contract was conceived 25 years ago and involves Germany, Spain, Italy and Britain building more than 600 high-peformance combat jets. The Eurofighter consortium comprises Britain’s BAE Systems (BAES.L), Italy’s Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI) and EADS (EAD.PA), representing Germany and Spain.
Interesting… I would have thought Turkey would stick to F-35 only, cheaper and more capable also in a2a — but then again Turkey probably wants the ToT from Eurofighter, that LM cannot offer.
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LokeAustria: Eurofighter Saga Continues
While EADS had clearly outlined to the Austrian government that canceling the contract would carry with it a €1.2 billion ($1.66 billion) penalty in exchange for zero aircraft, the company was willing to negotiate the final number of actually supplied jets, and in turn Darabos was able to reduce the Austrian purchase order from 18 to 15 in 2007. From the initial contract value of close to €2 billion for 18 jets, the negotiated reduction to 15 represented a net savings of about €250 million.
Increased cost, fewer jets
While Darabos was quick to trumpet his horn and represent his agreement with EADS as a boon to the Austrian taxpayer, subsequent verification by the Rechnungshof, the Austrian government’s oversight office, however quickly showed that the change in contract conditions actually created completely new delivery parameters and also featured many negative side-effects.
Aside from reducing the total number of jets to 15, Darabos also slashed various options for technical upgrades and advanced equipment, such as the modernization of the jets to cutting-edge Tranche-2 standards or the fitting of nighttime infrared gear.
Furthermore, Darabos also accepted that 6 of the delivered aircraft may have been previously used and others may feature used components. The various reductions from the global budget also meant that EADS was able to cut its industrial off-set obligations and therefore the Austrian economy received less in exchange spending.
All in all, the 2008 report by the Rechnungshof calculated that instead of getting 18 state-of-the-art Tranche-2 jets at a price of €109 million each, as stipulated by the original contract, the revised Darabos deal meant that Austria was suddenly paying an increased unit price of €114 million for 15 partially used, less-advanced Tranche-1 jets. Not only the Rechnungshof concluded that the math didn’t equate and EADS got the better end of the deal; the Austrian parliament and media in turn ripped Darabos, some even openly calling for his resignation.
Eurofighter deal plagued from start
The competitive €109 million price per jet was actually one of the leading factors that led the Austrian government to choose the Eurofighter back in 2002. Aside from the perceived value in price and various economic off-set deals, the desire for a prestigious next-generation aircraft that was fully compatible with the air forces of the country’s larger neighbors, made the Austrian government choose the Eurofighter over competing US offers for less expensive F-16 fighters or Swedish lobbying for the Gripen.
Despite that, the final selection of the Eurofighter originally surprised many people in the Austrian armed forces when the deal was announced. Many proponents from the Austrian air force had assumed that the Gripen would be the favored choice for a next-generation fighter, as Austria had just flown the Saab-built predecessor model, the Draken, since the 1970s.
While initially most of the political and financial controversy over the Eurofighters surrounded their almost €2 billion price tag, much of the follow-up argument has since then focused on cost overruns in infrastructure adaptations to house the jets, as well as disagreements over projected annual and lifetime operation costs.
The jets made came under fire again recently when the defense ministry had to concede that infrastructure improvements at the Zeltweg airbase, the only base in the country adapted to host the aircraft, had ballooned from €49 million to €160 million. This quickly led the opposition Green Party to call for an inquiry and to label the Zeltweg facility as a posh “Eurofighter Palazzo.”
On the operations front, the Austrian Defense Ministry has allocated €32 million per annum for the deployment and maintenance of the jets, even though a calculation by the Rechnungshof has estimated operations for 1500 flight hours to cost €50 million a year, later even climbing to over €100 million a year after 2013. If those projections prove accurate, and without the implementation of financial adjustments, the Austrian armed forces would have to cover the additional Eurofighter operations costs with funds originally earmarked for other purposes.
According to Professor Heinz Gärtner from the Austrian Institute for International Affairs, “Austria’s main defense profile lies in international missions and disaster relief. For these tasks the Eurofighter is useless,” he told ISN Security Watch.
“Territorial defense is only of tertiary importance. The high acquisition and maintenance costs of the Eurofighter require necessary cuts in other areas, such as helicopters, armed vehicles, air lift and surveillance, reconnaissance and communication.”
From a tactical point of view, the technical limitations and the politically induced downgrades of the aircraft have also forced the Austrian air force to forego any options for air defense and focus strictly on air policing responsibilities. Even there it seems handcuffed, as at present the 15 jets must share between themselves a total of 20 purchased missiles.
Seems the Austrians got ripped off… 114 million Euro sounds rather expensive for “partially used” T1 planes planes, in particular since they have the minimum of equipment… And their operational costs may be higher than expected .
I wonder what 15 Gripen would have cost them… :diablo:
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LokeHe said that there are two items were the rafale is above the competition according to pilots feedbacks in international exercises (he mentioned the typhoon the SH and the gripen). It was the Man Machine Interface which is top notch in the rafale according to him as well as the sensor fusion.
Thanks Arthuro, very interesting report. AFAIK, the Gripen NG will have a much improved MMI and sensor fusion (compared to Gripen C/D 🙂 )
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Lokehttp://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1432955.html
Even within the Pentagon, the GAO says, official estimates are that it will take one to three years and $2.5 billion to $7.5 billion more just to complete F-35 development and testing.
With the eight-year anniversary of the launch of F-35 development approaching this fall, the program is still in the crawl-before-you-walk stage. Production and testing of the 19 development aircraft are considerably behind the revised schedule drawn up in 2004 after it was determined that the aircraft needed to be redesigned to reduce weight.
The three completed test aircraft have flown only 99 flights in 2  1/2 years, including just a handful this year. That compares with the Pentagon’s goal of completing more than 400 test flights by the end of 2009, according to the GAO report.
“JSF flight testing is still in its infancy and continues to experience flight testing delays,” the GAO said, adding that manufacturing the test aircraft “is taking more time, money and effort than planned.”
Attention is now focused on the biggest fundamental performance requirement of the three JSF models — the short-takeoff and vertical-landing capability of the F-35B destined for use by the Marines and the British air force and navy.
Those tests, which were scheduled to begin last fall, were rescheduled for early this year after engine problems arose. The first F-35B test aircraft, using an earlier engine version, flew fewer than 20 flights last summer before going into the hangers for modifications and upgrades.
The new, stronger engine arrived in January, a month or more later than planned, and ground testing of the STOVL test aircraft was conducted in March and April.
But the plane won’t resume flying until next month as Lockheed makes additional engineering and software changes.
The test aircraft will be flown several times in July and August in Fort Worth to check out all the changes, after which the vertical flight tests will begin, Lockheed’s Crowley said.
It will then be flown to the Navy’s Patuxent River, Md., test center for more rigorous flight tests that are expected to result in full vertical landings “sometime in the September/October time frame,” Crowley said.
A second STOVL test aircraft will begin flying this summer, and two more are supposed to begin STOVL tests before year’s end.
As recently as March, Lockheed officials said 11 planes would fly by year’s end. Six or seven is now the target.
Crowley, who relentlessly projects an “everything is under control” message, said, “We knew all along that 2009 would be a challenging patch to get all these jets out.”
The testing delays can be made up, Crowley said, and won’t significantly affect the overall program schedule.
Testing so far has “cleared the full flight envelope” of the STOVL aircraft, and Crowley said he is confident that the aircraft will have no problem performing vertical takeoffs and landings.
“We’ve proven we can do vertical landings,” he said, pointing to the JSF demonstration flights that won the completion for Lockheed.
Pentagon officials overseeing the program have recently changed their directions to Lockheed from simply getting planes in the air for a few flights to holding them back until they are ready, with all the most recent changes incorporated, for continuous flight testing.
The key to making significant progress, Crowley said, is having the planes fully updated and “ready for productive tests” when they are sent to the main testing bases at Patuxent and at Edwards Air Force Base in California.
The GAO report — the agency’s persistent skepticism in its reports to Congress is a source of constant irritation to Lockheed officials — highlights the continuing struggle Lockheed faces in getting many key parts produced and delivered by suppliers.
With a total of 50 planes, including test aircraft, flying, in production or on order, plus 32 expected to be funded in the 2010 defense budget, pressure is growing to get the production system up to speed.
That situation is gradually improving, Crowley said. On-time parts deliveries have improved from the low 80 percent range a year ago to around 90 percent, requiring a constant juggling act to keep on top of the hundreds of individual contractors and help them resolve their problems.
“We’re kind of like when you see a swan on the water,” Crowley said. “It looks smooth on the surface, but underneath we’re paddling like hell.”
The coming months will be extremely interesting to follow…
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LokeGripen Completing A Successful Offset Year
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/8062/
The Gripen industrial co-operation programme in the Czech Republic generated almost CZK 5 billion in export value for the country during 2008.
The Annual Report on offset performance for 2008 has been approved by the Czech Ministry of Defence. The report concluded that the Gripen industrial co-operation programme in the Czech Republic generated CZK 4.94 billion in export value for the country. This accounts for 19 percent of the total offset obligation.
Since the start of the programme in 2004, the cumulative offset value generated reached CZK 16.24 billion as of 31 December 2008. This signifies a 63.5 percent completion of the total offset obligation contracted.
The most successful armament offset programme
“The priority of the Ministry of Defence is to make sure that all major armament projects are of benefit for the Czech defence industry as well as for other sectors,“ says Andrej _Ărtek, Director of the Communications Strategies Department at the Ministry of Defence in the Czech Republic. “The lease of the Gripen supersonic aircraft has brought, so far, the most successful offset programme in the history of armament projects in the Czech Republic.”
“We are very pleased with the result of the Gripen Offset Programme for 2008, it was the most sucessful year of the Programme so far. In times of global economic downturn, effective support packages for financial growth, like the Gripen Offset Programme, become more important”, says Bengt Littke, Programme Director for the Czech Republic at Gripen International. “We are confident that the Offset programme will support Czech industry in weathering the effects of the global financial downturn so that it is well positioned for realising its high potential when economic growth returns”.
Supporting Czech industry
Gripen International is committed to generating offset and industrial co-operation valued at 130 percent of the Gripen fighter lease contract value. The offset agreement requires a minimum direct offset equalling 20 percent of the offset agreement value to support and develop the Czech defence and aerospace industry.
Gripen International also has successful Gripen offset programmes in Hungary and South Africa.
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LokeItaly: Too Late for E-scan Radar on Eurofighter
http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.php?sh=VSDP&i=4139303
As Eurofighter partners discuss building an e-scan radar for the third tranche of the fighter, a senior Italian official has said the talks are too late and that Italy will stick with the mechanically scanned version for the first of its tranche-three aircraft.
“Eurofighter should have started work sooner on an active electronically scanned array [AESA] radar and partners are running late in developing one,” said Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, deputy chief of staff of the Italian Air Force.
The Eurofighters flown today by Italy, Germany, Spain, Austria and the United Kingdom use the mechanically scanned Captor radar, and Italy is likely to place a first order for 20 to 21 third-tranche fighters with that same radar, said Bernardis.
“Personally, I am very disappointed we did not start work earlier on an AESA radar for the Eurofighter, as far back as the start of the decade,” said Bernardis.
Eurofighter industrial partners have now started work on an e-scan radar for the Eurofighter, but work has been slowed by a lack of funding, they say.
Bernardis said he was wary of the possibility of spiraling support costs and even obsolescence of the mechanical radar if partners switch to a new radar.
Ouch.
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LokeWell, these radars could be delayed or reduced in capability for some unforeseen reason, and no matter what they will have significantly smaller arrays.
It seems Rafale and Gripen NG will get 1000-module AESAs; however I believe Typhoon will have room for a much bigger radar? The current CAPTOR has a diameter of 700 mm AFAIK, and some people even claim the Typhoon AESA could be even bigger than that, although I have not seen it “confirmed”.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1273521&postcount=306
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LokeDork Matter, Cola1973,
Thanks for some very interesting and thought-provoking posts! I really enjoyed reading your latest posts, great discussion, thanks! 🙂
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LokeI didn’t say that. :rolleyes:
The point is that the F-35 is going to be hugely important since it will replace so many different planes. If all the F16 had had the same engine and all got grounded at the same time, there would still be F15, F18, etc. etc. flying.
Some years into the future there will be F-35, and a very low number of F22 (US only), and perhaps a few SH; if all the F35s are grounded due to engine issues there is not much left flying.
besides, competition is good.
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LokeHave you noticed that all the non AESA equipped fighter competing in India and Brazil are scrambling to field AESA radars? No you would not have appreciated that subtlety would you.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1997/10/08/24839/ericsson-plans-flying-aesa-demonstrator.html
The AESA programme has been funded since 1994 by the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration. Ericsson says that it expects a radar of this type to be ready for operational use around 2010, and the system could be included in a future mid-life upgrade of the Saab JAS39 Gripen
Saab/Ericsson has been working on AESA for Gripen since 1994… It’s not like they started last year.
An update from 1998:
http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/B6AC635C-3417-437D-B3BE-61D4788008AB/0/gripen_news_1998_01.pdf
Ericsson AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) is a new airborne radar project currently in development. This radar is utilizing new, active phased- array technology involving 1,000 or more transmitter/receiver modules. The project is now in the first laboratory testing phase and a demonstrator is expected to fly around the year 2002. To extend the azimuth limits, the antenna will be mounted on a moving platform, an almost unique feature for this type of antenna, which will significantly increase the search area. A potential future application for this radar is a Gripen mid-life update beyond the year 2010. The AESA technology will improve the radar’s overall performance drastically, especially its target detection and tracking performance. For example, beam direction can be changed instantaneously, detection range will be considerably increased and jamming suppression further improved. The AESA radar will feature multibeam capability, with all beams individually and simultaneously controlled.
It can also operate simultaneously as a fire-control and obstacle-warning radar, and be used both in intercept and ground-attack missions. The multibeam concept also allows for radar operation, data linking, radar warning and jamming simultaneously.
Collaboration with Selex did not start yesterday, this is from 2006:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/saab-and-selex-to-work-on-maesa-radar-02819/
Saab Microwave Systems AB, Selex Sistemi Integrati S.p.A and Elettronica S.p.A. were recently awarded the second phase of a three phase Research and Development Program supporting the development of the next generation of microwave multi-function, multi-role systems called M-AESA (Multi-role Active Electronically Scanned Antenna).
Also note it says “second phase” — implying that there was also a first phase, before 2006…
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