Ok, so instead of reading the source material you just make stuff up and use that as an argument. Great. It was fun chatting with you. I wont bother replying to whatever straw man argument you come up with next.
Why so crass? IMHO Djcross is in general very knowledgeable and has made great contributions to this forum.
Djcross: What “failures to detect over Iraq” did you refer to? And are you sure that more modern AWACS would not fare better? I believe there has been quite a lot of improvement in sensors since the Iraq war!
There are three factors at work here:
1. Marketing BS put out by all radar manufacturers.
2. The true ability of AWACS radar against Gen 5.
3. The ability of Gen 4 fighter escort radar against Gen 5.Understand the marketing BS put out by Saab. 330km is the stated range for detection of a “fighter sized” target. If the stated range is for a cued search = small volume sector search (i.e angle of view <20 degrees), the the detection range will be 25% greater than a large sector search (angle of view >120 degrees). The increase in detection range is simple physics of putting more RF energy into the smaller volume. Implying cued search range = volume search range is a common tactic used in marketing brochures, but it simply isn’t true.
So, a the detection range for an AWACS’ common operating mode = large volume search drops to 264km for a “fighter sized” target.
Next, a clean, non-RAMed F-15 or SU-27 has an RCS of about 5 sq meters. Adding external weapons doubles the RCS (Yes, external weapons cause that dramatic increase!). So a laden, non-RAMed “fighter sized” target has an RCS of 10 sq meters (in L/S band). Using vague terms like “fighter sized” is another common tactic found in marketing brochures. The seller will always use the most favorable scenario to hawk his wares.
Now, use the 264km and 10 sq meters in the RCS equation (range^¼) and you will find that a Gen 5 with RCS of 0.01 sq meters (wag for L/S band RCS) is detected at 80km. This well within the range of an AIM-120D, PL-12 or late model R-27.
The Gen 4 escort for the AWACs probably has the ability to detect a 1 sq meter target at 130km (cued search). But would not detect the Gen 5, using your 1/100 of 0.5 sq meter = 0.005 sq meter RCS for X band, until it was within 40km. Again, the Gen 5s would have salvoed BVRs long before getting to 40km. The Gen 4s escorts would be wiped out/defensive/useless.
The bottom line is an AWACS is dead against a Gen 5 attacker. It doesn’t matter if its F-22/F-35 against A-50/A-100 or T-50/J-20 against E-3/E-2D/Erieye/Wedgetail.
AWACS are not all-seeing, all-knowing, infallible super weapons. Look at the failures to detect by E-3s over IRAQ. Spend your money elsewhere.
Better to network your Air Forces’ assets so the loss of a single key node (i.e. AWACS) doesn’t bring down your entire IADS. And that network needs to be much better than the non-stealthy, omni-directional Link-16 that everybody knows about.
You make a good point on cued search vs volume search, however:
The range given by Saab was 350 km for a cruise missile — would the cruise missile also have an RCS of 10m2?
Tracking range (not detection) for a fighter sized target (10m2 if you want) for the Erieye ER is more than 330 km. Since the 4 gen fighters will be networked with the Erieye, they will be able to receive the tracking from the Erieye. Thus as long as the Erieye is operational the fighters don’t need to rely on their own radars.
The Erieye has over the years been through several major upgrades, each time range has increased quite significantly.
The other thing you seem to ignore is that non-US “5. gen” fighters are still far away from reaching the stealth levels of the F-22/F-35. Also their avionics and sensor fusion is far away from what the US currently got.
Thus a modern AWACS still should play an important role in many environments.
Edit: Why are countries like Australia, Turkey and South Korea buying the Wedgetail if they are so useless? Even more interestingly; all those 3 countries also will operate the F-35. IMHO having F-35 should strongly reduce the need for having such an asset; whereas not having F-35 would increase the importance of having Wedgetail/Erieye ER in the inventory, since I believe it can compensate for the lack of having the networked sensors of the F-35.
The difference is the Swiss F-18s, along with the Finnish aircraft, were the last off the line and had the uprated engines as an option. That was not available to earlier operators.
So the Swiss got it for free because they were last off the line? Source please?
The only South American countries in the market for a fighter jet over the coming decade are Peru, Ecuador and Colombia, none of which have the budget for something like the Gripen E. They’ll go either for a cheap type like the FA-50 or JF-17, or second-hand fighters (most likely retiring F-16s).
Wrong.
Smith said a second country in Latin America was in dialogue with them to acquire the Gripen but he declined to name the air force in question.
One possibility is Colombia; it has a requirement and a budget to acquire a combat jet.
Nor anyone else. If you spoke with every Hornet pilot they will all tell you they want more thrust.
You miss the point. “they want more thrust” is not the same as actually paying for getting that extra thrust. I hope you see the difference.
Will it be equipped with torpedoes and anti-ship missiles?
I don’t think the GlobalEye includes ASW and ASuW — the Swordfish certainly does, and Swordfish based on Global 6000 has 4 weapon hardpoints: http://saab.com/globalassets/publications-pdfs/support-and-services/mpa/mpa_datasheet_g6000_a4_web_low.pdf
I wonder why they stopped at 4 hardpoints — why not go for 6!? Seems odd to me to have such a relatively large aircraft and only 4 hardpoints?
BTW here is the GlobalEye product sheet: http://saab.com/globalassets/commercial/air/airborne-solutions/airborne-surveillance/globaleye/globaleye_product_sheet.pdf
Force protection for an AWACS becomes impossible when the defender only has Gen 4 jets against a Gen 5 adversary. The AWACS/Gen 4s can only detect the Gen 5 at half of the Gen 5’s missile range. The Gen 5 flight, launching from beyond detection range, simply wipes out the Gen 4 defenders in a BVR salvo and chases down the AWACS.
How do you know this?
According to the posts on the previous page the previous version of Eireye would be able to detect a cruise missile 350 km away. I believe RCS of a cruise missile is commonly put at 0.5m2. For the Eireye ER detection range for an object having 1/10 of the RCS will be detected at the same range as for the previous version of Erieye.
This means that Erieye ER should be able to detect an object with RCS of 0.05m2 at 350 km.
Lowering RCS by factor 10 reduces detection range by 44%. Thus F-35 which is assumed to have rcs in the range of 0.005m2 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm) would then be detected at a distance of 200km.
The F-35 RCS estimates may be off of course. However another thing to consider is the actual threats. Who should be concerned about F-35? Probably not potential customers of GlobalEye. Potential GlobalEye customers would probably be more concerned about Su-35, PAK FA and J-20.
According to several sources the PAK FA rcs values are most likely not in the same ballpark as the F-35… thus I would not be surprised if a modern AWACS like Eireye ER would have no particular issues of picking it up.
“2nd pilot in the rear?”…. this would be Gripen D or Gripen Demo. The D is heavier and carries less fuel compared to C.
This would be the Gripen F not D… probably the F will not have the gun, however it would still be heavier and probably carry less fuel. Perhaps the F will be slightly longer than the E, just like the D is slightly longer than the C?
Finnish blogger Korporal Frisk has written up his thoughts on Gripen E/F for Finland after his visit to Saab earlier this year:
With the Russian army fielding long range precision strike capability in the form of e.g. the Iskander short-/medium range ballistic missile, the importance of dispersing the air assets have grown further, and any aircraft vying for the HX-contract need to show that it can handle operations from rugged road bases in harsh winter conditions.
The mission of suppression/destruction of enemy air defences (SEAD/DEAD) got a surprising amount of focus in the preliminary report. This is obviously something Saab is looking into, and a so-called Wild Weasel version of the two-seater 39F is in the cards. However, unlike the Boeing EA-18G Growler which is a different version based on the F/A-18F Super Hornet, Saab believes that the baseline 39F should be able to handle the mission with only modifications to the software and by carrying appropriate pods and weapons.
Read more: https://corporalfrisk.wordpress.com/2016/02/26/a-visit-to-the-griffins-nest-the-program/
The “wild weasel” comment is interesting. The F-16 is used as wild weasel by USAF; however unlike the Growler it’s single-seated and I believe it has no hardware modifications?
My guess would be that the Growler is more capable than a F-16 wild weasel, however perhaps a Gripen F Wild Weasel can meet the requirements of the Finnish air force? Maybe “Growler level” capabilities are not needed?
Proven by the Swiss themselves in a simple and undisputable way:
an F-18 simulated an airliner that had to be intercepted (cruising at altitude at subsonic speed), the interceptor had to scramble, climb and intercept it before ut leaves swiss airspace. Rafale and Typhoon did it with no problems, the Gripen scrambled, climbed and ran for all it was worth, and was bingo fuel before completing the intercept, having to interrupt the interception and go back to land. And before you come and say something along the lines of “the swiss did it wrong” or “they can’t fly”, in the rear seat was a saab pilot to monitor what was going on.. and couldn’t say anything wrong about what was done. The aircraft simply couldn’t do it
That’s why the should go for Gripen E not Gripen C. Gripen E should have enough fuel to do this.
(or they could scramble earlier, which was the point I was making above)
Standard C/D models undergone the Upgrade 21 and 25.
Upgrade 21 – AIM-9X, JHCMS, Link 16
Upgrade 25 – ALR-67(V)3 ECM, new LCDs, ASQ-228 ATFLIR pods, upgraded GPS and digital recorder, upgrades to armament computer and JMPS mission data system
improved engines (F404-GE-402) and a reinforced main wing spar.
http://www.lw.admin.ch/internet/luftwaffe/en/home/dokumentation/assets/aircraft/fa18.html
Perhaps it was the improved engine BS was referring to; I did not find the original article.
Edit:
GE developed the F404-GE-402 in response to a Swiss requirement for more power in its F/A-18 version[5].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F404#Specifications_.28F404-GE-402.29
So you see, the original Hornet engine did not meet Swiss requirements…
The Swiss requirements vis a vis QRA always seemed rather dubious to me. I mean, how does Sweden police its airspace given that it has only Gripen C/Ds available?
One could have argued that the Swiss hold themselves to a higher standard, if not for the rather embarrassing fact that QRA in Switzerland is only available during business hours on weekdays (until recently, not even during lunchtime). Plans to provide 24×7 QRA came about much later, and will still only fructify by 2020.
Good point about the office hours…
I wonder if Switzerland has such high requirements compared to e.g. Sweden because of shorter warning times?
In Norway there is normally plenty of warning time; we have strong radars in Northern Norway that spots un-identified a/c in international air space coming from Russia without a flight plan long before they start approaching Norway. I believe it is quite seldom the Norwegian fighters need to go supersonic when doing QRA (although it does happen from time to time).
However as I said previously I have read that the Swiss use their afterburners a lot! (I think it was Bill Sweetman who wrote this in one of his articles). Of course this does not mean they go supersonic all the time but at least it seems to indicate the need for rapid acceleration which will drink a lot of fuel, and if you have small tanks it can become an issue.
Perhaps they could install stronger radars that look further into the neighbouring countries, to increase warning times?
Of course captain obvious. If you can comprehend english that is what I am saying in my first paragraph.
I read the first sentence you wrote, but also the sentences below about air policing. What I said was that Gripen C did not meet the air policing requirement of the Swiss air force (not talking about strike, recce, OCA, DCA). Actually it did not meet the specific QRA requirement either (which was part of air policing it seems)
Presumably there are reasons for why they have such high requirements for air policing and QRA roles. If you don’t understand those reasons and find a way to address them, your proposal of going for a lower-performance is not relevant.
Also, for the record, the F-35 isn’t just better than the Eurocanard at Day 1 strikes, its equivalent or better at nearly every role, save perhaps for (non-fighter) interception. Including OCA, DCA, escort, SEAD, DEAD, strike and post-ROVER upgrade.. CAS too. The advantage of a VLO airframe cuts across mission profiles. Plus, going for the F-35 will lend to far better interoperability with other NATO air forces fielding the F-35 (US, UK, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Turkey.. and eventually Denmark, Canada, Poland & Spain too).
I agree F-35 and Belgium, however being “better” is not always important. If the evaluators are professional they come up with a list of technical requirements and check each a/c against that list of requirements; not against each other!
If an a/c passes all technical requirements then typically other issues comes into play, including economics, ToT, offsets, and politics.
Who knows; perhaps Rafale, Typhoon and F-35 all three pass the requirements in Belgium. If they do, then F-35 will most likely still be winner. And if they set requirements higher then perhaps only F-35 will pass. Or if they set requirements lower perhaps Gripen E will pass together with Typhoon, Rafale and F-35. In any case the best bet is the F-35 will win in Belgium since this will be the main plane for the US, and also for most other NATO countries as mentioned above.
Its an erieye-ng GaN + swordfish mpa + airtracer esm mashup/combo in a single aircraft.
In addition it has longer range/persistence than previous Erieye platforms. It can also fly higher, which together with the increased sensor range means that the scan volume becomes much bigger than before. All this means that it becomes attractive to higher-end customers.