LokeThe issue with the last Swiss fighter competition is the requirements are basically to have the best air superiority and multi role aircraft there is.
If the Swiss air force could lower the requirements thus make the solution seem more palatable to the Swiss population, then I could see that it would work this time round. Basically Switzerland just needs an affordable fighter that could do QRA, air policing and point defence in the small Swiss airspace. Something similar to the requirements of say the Czech air force. It is also of no use if expensive highly capable fighters only does QRA from 9-5 on weekdays and not fly at all on weekends.
That said even the basic gripen c/d should be adequate for Swiss needs. Other choices could be the FA-50 golden eagles or a version the upcoming northrop/bae/L3 T-X trainer which people say a derivative of the t-38/f-5 design.
The Swiss air force disagrees with you. For air policing Gripen C was found to not meet the requirements; Gripen E was found to barely meet the air policing requirement. Anything less than Gripen E would therefore not be acceptable for the air policing role in Switzerland.
I believe their Hornets are not quite “standard” either… and they use the afterburners a lot.
LokeThe leaks were done by dissatisfied military members, either to put pressure on the government to make it reconsider the aircraft choice, or to cancel it to invest money in other part of the military that greatly need it. What would be the point of a new leak when both the Tiger and Hornet should be replaced?
One of the rumors I have heard was that one of the competitors had “facilitated” the leaks — just a rumor of course.
LokeThe F-35 would have a snowballs chance in **ll in Switzerland. Especially if the voters have a say. It would be viewed as an offensive weapon system, anathema to Swiss defense doctrine. Even IF the F-35 APUC by 2020 is comparable with the Gripen E/F, the operating cost won’t be.
I can just imagine the Swiss voters asking themselves why they need a LO strike fighter for DCA and air policing.
All good points.
Gripen E it will be then.
I wonder if we will see leaks also this time?
LokeDespite its falling cost (and rising cost-effectiveness), the F-35 will still be a pricier alternative to the Gripen E.
Are you sure? I think I have read in the F-35 thread that the experts over there believe F-35 to become as affordable as Gripen. I may be wrong of course.
Spud and FBW where are you?
LokeIt all depends on what they ask for.
if they want to make a full selection process, the result may be interesting… and will inevitably end in a referendum.
Now, if once more, the policians decide to take an aircraft considered inadequate after the tests (by simply declaring it ok, as if tests never took place), the referendum will reject it. If they follow the recommendations if the evaluation team… it may come through
AFAIK not all reports were leaked, only those that painted Gripen in a bad light. The Swiss air force I believe agreed that given the financial constraints Gripen NG was the best choice at the time.
Lokeer, 34 fighter for 3.5bn €, the F-35 is far from that, unless you don’t count all the stuffyou need to pay for around it (and then, the Rafale can compete as well, maybe even the Typhoon)
The F-35 will keep dropping in price. Unlike Switzerland Belgium is a NATO country and will therefore make a huge effort to go for a plane made by a NATO country, and which is used by NATO partners. Thus F-35 is the most likely winner in Belgium. I would be shocked and surprised if Rafale or Typhoon should win; they will most likely be more expensive than F-35 at that time, and less capable. Gripen will be less capable as well, but most likely cheaper than the F-35.
LokeF-35 is a non starter i would think?
Why? It is projected to keep falling in price, and should be at a quite affordable level by 2020-2022. Or are you thinking about the noise level and the noise tests?
LokeAs is known, wants to buy the government 34 new fighter aircraft to replace the aging F-16s. To purchase a budget of 3.5 billion euros.
Google translated from: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland/article/detail/2626834/2016/02/24/Opvolger-F-16-s-zal-Belgie-in-40-jaar-tijd-bijna-15-miljard-euro-kosten.dhtml
3.5 billion Euro for 34 fighters — I wonder why Eurofighter and Rafale bother to participate? This is between F-35 and Gripen, probably the only fighters that can fit within such a budget.
LokeSwizterland is restarting its quest for a new fighter jet for its air force after a botched attempt two years ago to purchase 22 Saab Gripens. New aircraft are still needed to replace ageing F-5 Tigers, defense minister Guy Parmelin told Swiss government on Wednesday 24 February.
This year the Swiss start setting up requirements for the new fighter plus a set of plans for the selection process and eventual purchase. The selection is set to last until 2020, with a formal decision and order no later than 2022. Deliveries should start by 2025, according to Parmelin.
http://airheadsfly.com/2016/02/24/switzerland-restarts-quest-for-new-fighter-jet/
Will they go for Gripen E again, or will the F-35 win? Or perhaps Rafale will drop in price due to increased production between now and 2020?
LokeAgree, the RTAF is ready and waiting to introduce another 40-60 Gripen as the F-16s, F-5s and even the Alpha jets age off.
Perhaps, but would they perhaps be more interested in Gripen E than C?
LokeSwerve and Ozair, thanks that makes sense.
A combination of Gripen and Erieye ER seems like a quite low-cost but still very potent combination.
I wonder what the detection range of the new Erieye ER will be for stealth targets. Back in 2008 this was said about the version of Erieye being launched at that time:
Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60% higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/saab-scans-aew-market-for-new-erieye-buyers-223370/
Globalsecurity.org says effective range for “fighter-sized aircraft” was 330km (referring to Erieye, not the ER):
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/erieye.htm
Edit: the “effective range” refers to tracking not detection it seems. “fighter sized aircraft” normally means RCS of 5m2 I believe; if so, the ER should be able to track an LO target with RCS of 0.5m2 at more than 330km.
Is there a “rule of thumb” for the relationship between detection range and tracking range?
LokeThose are factual errors. MS20 does not include IRST & PS-05 Mk. 4.
Thanks, I did find in particular the IRST to sound rather strange. A more reliable source:
New missile METEOR
New ground targets weapons SDB (Small Diameter Bomb)
New radar applications
Improved self-protection
GCA (Ground Collision Avoidance System)
Protective equipment (CBRN) which allows flight in the contaminated area
Miscellaneous availibility and robustness enhancing measures
Expanded collaboration functions, including Link 16
Digital CAS, therefore, cooperation with ground troops
Extended functionality reconnaissance
Support for navigation in the civil airspace
Google translated from:
http://www.fmv.se/sv/Nyheter-och-press/Nyheter-fran-FMV/FMV-provar-ny-mjukvara-till-JAS-39-Gripen/
LokeSaab will roll out the first Gripen E version at Linkoping, Sweden on May 18, said Richard Smith, the company’s head of marketing and sales for the combat aircraft. In a bullish briefing at the Singapore Airshow last week, Smith said that thanks to the 60 new-build E/F jets for Sweden, plus the Brazilian Gripen order and other surveillance and submarine programs, the Swedish company’s backlog was at an all-time high of $13.5 billion.
Smith described the “huge technical transfer program” associated with the Brazilian acquisition of Gripen. This includes 50 key projects in four categories, and is an expanded version of the model used in South Africa’s Gripen deal. Last October, the first 48 of an eventual 350 Brazilian engineers arrived in Sweden to work on the project. Fifteen of the expected 36 Gripens to be acquired by Brazil will be built by Embraer at a Development Center to be established at Gaviao Peixato. The center will also help develop the two-seat Gripen F and integrate weapons.
Meanwhile, development of the existing Gripen C/D version was continuing. The Swedish air force was introducing the MS20 upgrade that includes a new radar processor and receiver/exciter, a new IRST (infrared search and track), and new weapons. The Mk4 radar upgrade provides longer range to exploit the new MBDA Meteor BVRAAM (beyond visual range air-to-air missile), which Sweden will be the first to declare operational.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-02-22/bullish-saab-sets-rollout-date-gripen-e
This is the first I hear about a new IRST in MS20? Also interesting to note that MS20 includes the mk4 radar upgrade:
Disclosed by company officials on 27 April, the Mk4 modification involves the replacement of two line-replaceable units in the back section of the mechanically-scanned radar. This provides a new exciter/receiver module with digital waveform generation and a new radar processing unit, along with updated software.
As a result of these updates, the PS-05/A Mk4 gains a claimed increase in detection range of at least 100%, and this is expected to rise to 150% for a high-altitude air-to-air engagement scenario by 2017, Saab says.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/gripen-customers-offered-major-radar-enhancement-411687/
Loke^ So basically Dassault is demanding about $13.5 billion, while the Indian MoD isn’t prepared to sanction more than $10 billion (these figures probably include an allocation for a substantial weapons complement). Still.. seems to wide to be bridged, more than the likely profit margin for Dassault.
NEW DELHI: Under pressure to conclude the much-hyped Rafale warplanes deal with France, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have fired a warning shot to the French negotiators to reduce the price by 30 per cent if they want to ink the deal in this financial year.
An MoD official said India wants to pay `65-68,000 crore (8 billion Euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets fitted high-end weapons and radars systems, while Dassault—the manufacturer—has quoted `90,000 crore (12 billion Euros).
“Though the French have come down marginally on their previous stand, we have told them to reduce 30 per cent if they want to clinch the deal in the current financial year,” an MoD official told The Sunday Standard. IAF is expected to get the aircraft three years after signing the contract.
Edit: oops I was mixing up Euro and USD; so these numbers matches with the numbers reported previously (12 billion Euro is approx. 13.4 billion USD with todays exchange rate)
It will be interesting to see if they really go through with this.
LokeIt seems the Erieye ER is S-band like the original Erieye.
What do the radar experts on the board think about this? I am no expert in radars so my question is probably terribly naive: Will an S-band radar be able to track fighters and other flying objects? Or is the resolution too poor?
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