LokeMmm… so in 3 years India might be manufacturing two different types in addition to buying 36 Rafale. Never heard anything so ridiculous! But as a thought, are there any companies apart from HAL (the private sector would do the manufacturing) capable of undertaking such an endeavour?
It seems crazy but several sources have reported this now, e.g:
One could speculate if this is just a trick to get a better deal with Dassault; I doubt it since they talk about a decision by the end of the year. After negotiating with France for many many years one would think they had made a lot of progress and were ready to close a deal!?
Therefore I think this is real: they are really thinking to buy a second western fighter and build those locally. So my guess is:
1. They will buy 36 Rafale “off-the-shelf”
2. They will choose another Western partner, set up a plant in India and build new fighter jets.
Who could the new partner be!? I strongly doubt Eurofighter; Typhoon is roughly in the same price class as Rafale, and having to deal with 4 partners (one of which is Germany) seems like a nightmare for India.
Thus one is left with SH, F-16, and Gripen. All three have pros and cons, and I don’t know how they will assess them. None of them made it to the MMRCA shortlist, the reasons are unknown to me.
IMHO of course.
LokeWhat I don’t understand is why Russia considers NATO a threat in the first place.
Switzerland and Austria are “surrounded” by NATO but seem not to be very concerned.
Finland and Sweden both have borders with NATO countries but seem also not to be very concerned.
Why is Russia so concerned?
LokeAnd as for both evaluations, Gripens full specs wasn’t used. In India, Saab was not able to prove Gripens AESA capability, and had to settle with the specifications of its current radar. Unlike Rafale and EF that managed to barely prove they had the capability to fit an upgraded version of their radars.
Because the norwegian competition was not rigged or anything… The Gripen only “cost more” to buy and operate than the F-35 [whose price was specified without engines however]…
SAAB withdrew from the Canadian competition as it wasn’t profitable to spend money and time on a deal where the F-35 was regarded as the obvious choice. SAAB withdrew from the Danish competition for the same reason, and expressed openly that if Denmark or Canada would declare any open competitions and be interested in the Gripen as a candidate, the Gripen would likely return into the competitions.
Finland however is not a NATO member, are interested in local production/manufacture/assembly, has expressed the need for long range capabilities and air patrol/aerial warfare as its primary goal with a history of wanting more “bang for the buck”. The Gripen is in a much better stance than the F-35.
And no. The price of the F-35 is not something that is going down steadily. Problems in manufacturing, decreased orders and an unchanged [or even rising] cost of operation and maintenance is not something that would change the F-35 from being an expensive fighter to an inexpensive fighter.
For the Swiss eval, all companies were given the chance to describe the 2015 version of their a/c. Of course they used the infamous “credibility factor” to downscale capabilities according to their state of development, however it is to be expected, the Swiss are careful people.
The Norwegian competition was “rigged” in the sense that Gripen would not have won even if it had been a fully stealthy 5. gen a/c offered at a lower price than F-35; however it was not really necessary to rig it since the requirements were put very high and Gripen did not meet all technical requirements.
The nonsense about pricing in Norway; I don’t know why they did that, perhaps just to make the F-35 more acceptable to the anti-US left-wing party that was in government at that time; they stated they wanted the cheapest solution (which was assumed to be Gripen).
Regarding Finland; I agree that Saab may have small chance however as you say the Finns are very much focused on bang for the bucks, and unlike what you are claiming the F-35 costs are coming down (I suggest you visit the F-35 thread and ask Spud and the other experts about that).
LokeNEW DELHI: India is likely to select by the year-end at least one fighter aircraft that will be manufactured by the private sector under the ‘Make in India’ process for supply to IAF, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said.
Parrikar said yesterday through “proper process”, by year end “we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don’t commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also.”
Read more: http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/02/private-sector-to-make-fighter-jets-for.html
LokeSaab Gripen NGs destined for Sweden and Brazil will benefit from a new Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system developed for integration on the fighter.
A total of 96 of the Finmeccanica-developed IFF systems, plus spare parts, will be delivered over a five-year period beginning in 2017 under the contract, which was signed at the end of 2015 but announced at the show.
The transponder being provided for Gripen – the Mode 5 M428 – is also being offered to the UK Ministry of Defence for a NATO requirement for a new standard of IFF, although Wigg could not say which platforms this includes.
Read more: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/singapore-new-iff-system-ordered-for-gripen-ng-421914/
http://www.finmeccanica.com/en/-/m428-iff
Looks good!
LokeI am not masquerading as anything. Unlike you, I am not hiding behind multiple accounts…
And that’s the point. You have like 6 posts on this forum and already were treated very rudely earlier? Guess why…
And given your attitude, I don’t think it’s gonna change anytime soon…
Why such harsh words to a new-comer?
I looked back and I saw he had some “discussions” with Urban, certainly not the best introduction to this forum.
Let’s give The_5aab_God a chance!
Welcome The_5aab_God!
(may I ask; is this your first forum? Your nick name is rather interesting, and could be one of the reasons why some people are acting strangely around you; no offence intended…)
Loke’s three advice to new-comers: Be polite, be on-topic, and be polite.
LokeI also want to believe that there is no military threat from Russia to Baltics. However, living in this region, observing Russia’s activities here and watching their news translating into Baltics, it’s not so obvious for me. History shows there are no calculations that can reliably predict actions of authoritarian regimes.
Today it seems the probability of Russia entering the Baltics is low, mainly due to NATO membership.
However one should definitely not let the guard down. Look at Syria, Ukraine, and Georgia. Russia has demonstrated that she has the capabilities but also the will to use military force to reach certain goals. Even if it seems “silly” today that Russia would enter the Baltics one should keep in mind they were part of the Russian empire (USSR), they have large Russian minorities, and Russia definitely consider them within their “sphere of influence”.
But that era of post-cold war calm may have come to an end on Friday morning, when, according to several Estonian accounts, smoke grenades detonated at an Estonian customs post, and all radio and telephone signals were jammed as armed Russian men suddenly materialised and dragged away a local official.
The hope that the affair would turn out to be low-key was initially strengthened when Estonian and Russian border guards performed a joint inspection, which seemed to verify the evidence of an incursion from Russia into Estonia, including multiple footprints in a band of raked sand that runs through no-man’s land.
By Sunday, however, it became increasingly clear that Russia had other ideas. The Estonian was taken to Moscow where he was paraded before television cameras. The Russian Federal Security Service, the FSB, successor to the Soviet KGB, claimed Kohver had been caught on Russian soil.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/russia-parades-detained-estonian-police-officer
This is just one example of what Russia has been doing recently, there are many other examples… Personally I was not happy about how NATO and EU handled this; they should have been much more forceful and clear once it became evident that it was not Russian mafia that had abducted the officer from Estonian territory, but Russian authorities. This is simply completely unacceptable, and IMHO a very strong response from EU and NATO would have been warranted. Putin understands just one language, and that’s the language of power.
LokeI was talking about India and the Growler. The F-18 Growler would complement those 300+ MKIIs nicely.
You would have a jammer escort to break down the IADS that we know China will eventually put up.
What I did not understand was this:
The Rafael…. not so much.
Or do you mean Rafale?
LokeI like gripen. I like Saab. I do not like propoganda
I think most people here are aware that Gripen E was ranked third in e.g. the Swiss eval, and was not shortlisted after the technical eval in the Indian MMRCA; however in spite of being ranked third in Switzerland it did win (although referendum stopped the deal from moving forward.)
It also lost in Norway, and withdrew from Canada and Denmark. I doubt it will win in Finland since the price of F-35 seems to be dropping steadily and by the time the Finnish are going to buy, it will probably be affordable.
Anyway, don’t be too negative; the Swiss leaks revealed something that I had long suspected: that Gripen E will have some top-notch EW capabilities, and lacking stealth, that’s one important component you need to survive… more important than good kinematic performance IMHO.
After seeing the Swiss eval I would rather be in a Gripen E with Meteor and IRIS-T, protected by a superior EW suite and brite-cloud, rather than in a super-fast Typhoon with inferior EW suite, inferior sensor fusion, and no AESA (but of course I would rather be in a Rafale than a Gripen and rather in a F-35 than a Rafale…)
As for super cruise — come on, don’t you have any sense of humor? 🙂 (let me guess: you are Swedish…)
LokeFrom Gripen thread:
Swedish Gripen are bombing Russian forces in Lithuania:
https://twitter.com/David_M_Bergman/status/699690267960569856
LokeSwedish Gripen are bombing Russian forces in Lithuania:
https://twitter.com/David_M_Bergman/status/699690267960569856
LokeGripen E for sure will be a light-weight fighter and not in the same class as Rafale, SH or Typhoon.
The E will not be the right a/c for everybody; however for countries like Brazil, Switzerland, etc. it seems like a good fit. And I think it could also be a good fit for countries with higher ambitions if combined with another a/c (i.e. the “lo” in a “hi-lo” mix). The whole point with a “lo” is that it is low-cost but still good performance.
The Indian thinking seems strange; one of very few countries that go for a “light-medium-heavy” fleet. Perhaps politically motivated…
LokeSaab claims their new Global Eye can detect stealthy a/c at a distance:
The rapid development of the radar page also affects how the fighter aircraft designed. Aircraft built with stealth technology (stealth) to be really hard to detect is suddenly not so difficult to see anymore.
– The whole point of stealth is not to be discovered. Now they’ll be there anyway and it allows one to question what is stealth, says Micael Johansson.
A dull effect for those who invested in stealth characteristics is that the technology is both expensive and often require adjustments to the plan that can degrade performance. If the plan can still be detected, the only downside to stealth without getting the benefit of being difficult to detect.
Google translated from http://www.svd.se/saabs-nya-radar-ska-avsloja-stealthplan
LokeRussian paranoia…
After WW2 Norway and many other small countries willingly entered NATO since it was realized that small countries cannot stand alone.
Western Europe definitely preferred the US and NATO to the USSR.
Also Eastern Europe preferred EU and NATO to Russia after the war fell.
Each country decided by themselves.
Why did Russia not want to become part of NATO, and integrate more with Europe? Perhaps integration with Europe would be difficult because Europe prefers more democracy and less corruption, which is perhaps the opposite of what some Russian leaders prefer?
LokeYou could actually make the argument for the F-18 growler escort jammer here. China is getting the S-400, and already has the S-300 and a decent spin-off. The Rafael…. not so much.
Rafael? What would China (not) get from Rafael?
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