Time machine and something fitted with a BROACH warhead….

I guess I just don’t care. If someone takes a sh!t on my garden, I will throw that sh!t off my garden as quick as possible, and I don’t care where it lands.

…and yet you get all twitchy when you get branded ignorant?. Ignorant is as ignorant does Forest…you understand the American pop culture reference I’m assuming!.

1. NATO is not a political organisation.
2. A deal has two parts. If you want one part adhered to, you have to adhere to the other part.

1. Irrelevant. The governments of the EE nations that sought NATO membership are political organisations. Either they have the legal right to seek membership….like you said….or they dont….like you…er…also said.
2. Did NATO invade or actively coerce those nations into seeking NATO admittance?. Are the Baltic states actively resisting NATO’s presence in their countries?. You yourself mention the ‘large country next door with close on 2,000 nuclear warheads and the largest land army in the world’. Wonder why they might be interested in being a part of a wider military alliance?. Funny how you seem to answer your own questions isnt it Sigma?.

It’ll be when you accept the fact we’ve left the EU and quit whinging like a little girl!

So all that we are waiting for is me to stop whinging like a little girl and we will shift to a net exporting state….wow. Can we take it you’ve given up grasping for increasingly tenuous and idiotic arguments and have retreated into simple denial now?.

Stuck-up Londoners and bankers whine about Brexit while the rest of the UK celebrate.

Very muted celebrations Sigma….most of the Leave voters went back to their X-Factor after they realised they didnt know what they were voting for after all. When the demagogues proclaiming the revolution, like Farage, scuttled away without actually delivering flayed Tory skins everything seems to have drifted a bit doesnt it?. What a surprise that is.

Deportation is about being able to use a trashcan without interference. It’s that simple. If I need to put some sh!t-stained diapers in the bin, I don’t want to have a debate on the legality of it with a foreign entity.

OK you are shortsighted…you dont see what acting directly against the values that we claim does long term. You missed what Guantanamo Bay did to US soft power. Fine you’ve proved that you dont understand this now.

I’m not sure which Cold War ending deal allowed for NATO and the EU expanding East by a dozen countries or more

NATO didnt expand east. Countries to the east asked to join NATO. Not good for anyones security to refuse them….unless you’re of the school of thought that agrees NATO was an existential threat to the territorial integrity of the Russian Federation. That would be despite the fact that european NATO states defence budgets have been tumbling ever since the ‘Peace Dividend’ popped up as a concept. Bottom line its very abidingly clear that NATO ‘expansion’ threatens no-one who doesnt harbour aggressive intent and a few crocodile tears fool nobody….apart from you perhaps.

As for the rest of it….Crimea was Ukraine until Sevastopol became an issue. You can make up whatever story you like, but, Sevastopol is still the home of the Black Sea Fleet today when otherwise it wouldnt be. Land grab plain and simple. Fair play to Putin he gambled and got away with it.

And still labour costs, and operating costs will make up the bulk of the work, plus the homegrown items that we use will also be cheaper for the same reason; raw materials are generally not expensive. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When we left, the currency fell, which was exactly what we needed.:eagerness:

This is simple Sigma….costs increase 8%….costs are either absorbed which is bad….or passed on to consumer which is bad. The homegrown items….wherever they need imported goods, plant or materiel in their production their costs increase too. We didnt need the currency to fall in any way shape or form….we are a net importer Sigma….we import more than we export. Currency weakening increases our defecit….the government have already had to scrap the budgetary surplus target which was a worthwhile goal.

They had to go through hell to deport Qatada and Hamza and what has Putin actually done? Trading with The Middle Eastern regimes is distasteful, you just can’t handle that fact.

What does it matter how hard they had to work?. They deported him and stayed inside the rules. Best possible outcome. Double standards here are unbelievable….you have a crack at us for dealing with these regimes and, when we successfully work with one to achieve a common aim in line with every objective standard of common decency, you criticize that too!. Unbelievable.

What has Putin done that puts him apart?. I’m assuming that’s not a serious question. I’m also assuming you’re being deliberately naive and childish with the statement regarding the ME. Some countries we engage with and when engaged we are in place to help promote change. Some countries annexe and threaten neighbours and dont fit in to that category. You work with one and sanction the other.

Or the £ goes done 15% and suddenly exports are still cheaper even with the 8%… assuming joint partnerships and multinational defence companies even select such a retarded route.

This is like pulling teeth…ok….Sterling goes down 15% and your imports, and therefore costs, become 15% more expensive. The 8% tariff is not offset in any way.

1. May has signed nothing. The EU has said no EEA without Schengen. Everyone with full access in the EEA has had to sign up for free movement. Face it Sigma were in a far worse position now than we were.

2. Youre hung up on damned prisoner voting rights?. The economy is potentially headed into the tank and you’re made up we can stop the prison population voting?. Noticed you mentioned Hamza and not Qatada. Seems like the issue is torture not politics. Guess it comes down to you’re position on torture I guess?. Hard to claim a moral high ground when you facilitate it though?.

3. Do love the irony that you want to climb into bed with Putin and condone torture and yet the EU are the evil empire!.

Okay, for the purpose of an example, I will make just one rule for you abide by. This accounts for only 0.000…1% of the rules affecting your life, so it shouldn’t make much difference. The rule is as follows:

“Stick your head up your butt and keep it there.”

Suddenly you see the problem that even one inconvenient rule can cause.

So this is something else you dont want to think too much about…..ok. Par for the course it seems.

Thanks for reinforcing the stereotype so adeptly though Sigma…you are proving quite clearly to all these other good folks that Leave voters are a breed apart in the UK. :rolleyes:

Not really proven as the case in any sense Yama. The main cost of warships, as we know the mantra now, is in systems and these for the most part are still going to be hand-me-downs from the 23’s. The design costs are sunk pretty much so its only the build and validate costs left up front. The money poured into 26 should tail off pretty abruptly.

The curiosity is whether a Venator or Cutlass, without benefit of donor radars/data suites/missiles will actually be any cheaper than bloated T26. If not then the point of them is elusive. From a certain perspective the Avenger design does suddenly start to look quite interesting!

111 metres is about 3000 tons displacement, no? If they want proper endurance and seakeeping, capabilities are going to be modest. OTOH maybe they don’t need latest gee-whiz if it’s going to just hunt pirates off Somalia.

What happened to Types 27 to 30?

Not sure if this should have its own thread as opposed to cluttering Tango’s news feed….cap tipped to Tango!. Will let the mods decide.

Types 27-30 should (and I stress ‘should’) be future ASW specialist escort classes. The Type 31 designation is itself an odd one that I’ve not seen explained anywhere….other than as a ‘mistake’. The RN type designation for a GP escort is in the 80-series. Some have said its tongue-in-cheek and is an allusion to the requirement being that for a modern T21….so Type21 plus 10 for round numbers -> Type 31. Part of me is happy to believe that.

Problem is we need a hull that can warfight as well as wag a naughty naughty finger at skiff-riding Somali’s. There is also the experience of the Egyptian Navy to consider…them having one of their 100ft OPVs blatted by an all too portable and widely available ATGM is quietly game-changing. Such events will become more commonplace and will necessitate more and better offboard systems to keep things at arms length.

Heavy focus on Force Protection then is going to be required for ownship operation and can be a vital contribution to wider fleet operations in the opposing littoral….if likely not on transit owing to propulsion limitations. Systems like MQ-8, ScanEagle, Remus600 and perhaps ‘better interceptors’ than your traditional RHIBs like Hazard/ARCIMS or THOR will all be the kinds of Force Protection effectors that the new hull will be looked at to support as the mission evolves.