JonesyI wouldn’t mind the Avenger as the 2 extra OPVs mentioned in the last SDSR.
Prefer the Venator 110 concept to the Cutlass if I’m honest.
Amusing that we were discussing what has, now, materialised as Cutlass on this forum back in June 2009!. I am actually quite heartened that BAE have released these designs….my take on T31 was as a makework scheme agreed with BAE to get the taxpayer to fund a new ‘commercial’ low-end escort for them.
Quite clearly BAE have been playing with their existing hulls though….rather than ‘innovating’. I have slender hopes then that T31 isnt a BAE ‘gimme’!.
It appears to be a straight affordability battle from this point then. High end will be a foreign hull like XO131A or an innovative one like Venator110…..low end will be Avenger with its commonality with the OPV’s. Cutlass will sit likely somewhere in the middle depending on what level of offboard systems support it brings to the party. I’d imagine best compromise for the RN, industry and the govt. would be BAE building the BMT design. Would be amazed if it saves a huge deal over T26 though.
JonesyDoesn’t take much longer than counting them.
Quite.
Do you want to have a little think about that?.
JonesyTell that to the servicemen who went to Porton Down to test a flu vaccine, which turned out to be VX. Tell that to the hundreds of victims of Jimmy Savile, who remained knighted until just after he died, when everything suddenly got discovered. Tell that to the families of Hillsborough victims who had to wait 27 years for the South Yorkshire police to stop lying. And many more… of the ones that have actually been disclosed.
Always wondered whether tin foil hats are really hot and sticky after you wear them a while.
None of those things have even the slightest bearing on whether you can rub out pencil marks on a couple of million ballot papers in the couple of hours window you would have to accomplish the feat….let alone seamlessly arrange the interception and corruption of the ballot boxes in transit. That is ignoring the very, very basic point that, if you have the will and resource to accomplish the feat in the first place, you would have the ballot pre-rigged….or….you would have the political clout to simply ignore an undesired result!. Its not unheard of for a government to simply ignore a referendum result….the Swedes did it in 55 and it didnt result in civil war!. Far easier than the idiocy you suggest!.
JonesyI have a healthy distrust. Disposing of ballots isn’t as easy as using a rubber and you would have to question why they use pencils in the first place.
You don’t need to be trusting. You just need elementary powers of deductive reasoning.
You speak of using ‘a’ rubber. A single rubber will take arguably 20 seconds to remove all traces of a lightly imprinted mark and allow a new one to be substituted. Your rubber would take 231 days to modify 1 million ballots. Alternately it would take 231 people doing 3 papers a minute non stop for a day to complete the same exercise.
Disposing of ballots is not only ‘easier’ it is viable. Ballot modification is not. Taking a pen to a ballot box is more indicative of the IQ of its owner than anything else.
JonesyI specifically filled mine in with a pen I brought rather than using the pencil provided and encouraged other Leave voters to do the same.
Well done for defeating the conspiracy. Who knows what chicanery they might have gotten up to if it wasn’t for your kind of foresight…..
….I mean, being willing to engage in electoral fraud, ‘they’ may have just dumped rafts of Leave ballots in a big pit and passed over their pre-ticked Remain ballots to be counted?. Not quite sure how your incisive and clear preparation, fiercely clutching your little pen, would defeat such an elementary move?. We can be sure though, were ‘they’ to undertake such a machiavellian and complex plot, your ballot would have stayed the clearest marked of all of them in the pit!. Good for you. Bravo.
JonesyCan we please step back from the personal insults. This thread has been pretty respectful up until now, and I don’t want to see it heading the way of some.
To be honest Bruce no I cant. So, having made all the points I feel I need to, I’ll retire from the field before things get increasingly unpleasant.
JonesyWell we do know that you dont do too well given a simple choice between two answers John. You have rather proved that havent you?.
This is an even simpler question though. Do you know your position on Islam is flawed and therefore your opinion is valueless or do you accept that you are just too bigoted to have a worthwhile opinion to publish?. Admittedly the outcome either way isnt good for you….but I think its clear that you arent really bothered whether or not your opinion is valid….you will broadcast it any way.
Brings me to a favourite meme
[ATTACH=CONFIG]246984[/ATTACH]
…of course the lad in question is one of the ‘elite’ and naturally someone you can be proud of opposing eh John?.
Jonesy“Muslims instead of Jews….”
Jonesy, educate me. Was it the Jews in the 1930s in Nazi Germany who instituted world wide campaigns of bombings of innocent civilians, who decapitated innocent people simply because they worshipped the ‘wrong’ God ?
Was it the Jews in pre war Germany who spoke openly about the establishment of the Jewish equivalent of a world wide caliphate ? Did the Jewish clergy in pre war Germany stand openly on the streets and flaunt their defiance of the law by openly preaching violence, hate, oppression towards women and minorities such as homosexuals etc.
Or, perhaps as alleged with the Muslims, it was ONLY a tiny percentage of Jews responsible.
The Arabic for ‘crystal night’ is still ‘shame’.
You are an idiot.
John you manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth here…either you know its a minority of muslims (and that definition used in its broadest sense….as my muslim friends dont recognise their behaviour as islamic) which makes yours and Stu’s points about immigration here imbecillic.
Or….
You dont understand that point and, in 30’s Germany, would have been the sort of people who would be trying on a nice new brown shirt?.
Which is it John….you seem to have painted yourself into a corner?. Are you a fool or a bigot?.
JonesyLoving the fact that Stu says it’s all the immigrants fault that large sections, in some areas, of the British populace have poor prospects and opportunities. As if they weren’t all there 20 and 30 years ago joy riding around shtholes of council estates nicking anything that they could get their hands on and giving their kids no more aspiration than to take over their council house when they finally succumbed to lung cancer or liver failure!.
Those poorly educated muppets are of course the pliable and easily swayed votes that have delivered this popular uprising against the elitists!. Absolutely let’s find a way of justifying their existence and ensuring they stay dumb and with plenty of unfocused anger that can be channeled!.
It is such a huge irony to defy belief that the nationalists here, so proud of our martial history, are so willing to ignore the lessons of that history and employ the exact tactics of the most implacable enemy we faced over the last century. Muslims instead of Jews that’s all. Wonder what the Arabic is for kristalnacht?
JonesyWhy aren’t you inferring that ? I do value the odd compliment.
“…nothing forcing France………..”
Only the huge pile of baksheesh we paid them. A latter day Danegeld – I’ll explain that to you Jonesy if required.
Except a) we don’t pay in a huge pile and b) they are quite free to refuse our Danegeld next time….which leaves the setting for these videos to be somewhat closer to home.
JonesySomething we’re going to have to get used to. Only a matter of time until there is an atrocity or accident of such magnitude that the French wash their hands of the problem and put them on ferries for Dover.
Just as a reminder now we’re out of the EU there’s nothing forcing France to keep those heading for the UK in France. At least nothing the French can’t abrogate. Something for your new English Border Guard to deal with eh John?. Sorry….slip there John I meant UK border guard of course….not inferring you’re some kind of overly nationalistic zealot of course!
JonesySo what, History repeats it’s self, for instance, the Nazi’s and the Jews, the Turks and the Armenians…
Difference is over 70% are young, fit, single third World Muslim men, aged between 15 – 50 with little or no education, can barely read their own language let alone another, with minimal skill level or more likely none.
With a Religious/Social Ideology incompatible with Western culture, who will undoubtedly not integrate with the native populous.
Where do they fit in this list that taking them in will benefit any Western country.
There are four categories of immigrants:
1. Family class (closely related persons of residents living in country)
2. Economic immigrants (skilled workers and business people),
3. Other (people accepted as immigrants for humanitarian or compassionate reasons)
4. Refugees (people who are escaping persecution)And tell me why Saudi Arabia will not, and have not accepted any people of their own for humanitarian or compassionate reasons?
Well I guess it is a strategy to just throw in a completely random argument to derail a debate.
The point you seem to be trying to dodge is that no one is saying we should take these people. What’s being said is that in the EU we were much more likely for them to be stopping in France where they’ve been since the Sangatte days.
The point is that for all your scare stories of Muslim hordes that you’ve failed to realise that your choice on polling day has increased the chances of them hitting this shore not decreased it!.
Well played that man!
JonesyIt has nothing to do with the Nuremberg per se. It has everything to do with the ‘multitudes’ I mentioned. To my eye certainly and probably a few million others, the Nazi regime looked to be extremely popular. So, don’t try and ‘wing’ it with dopey stats.
You said look at the newsreels John. You said they showed multitudes as proof of complicity. I’m telling you they showed a fraction, and a small fraction at that, of a population. Their value in supporting your overwhelming popular support theory John is laughable.
What isn’t laughable is that you are so ready to generalise across a population.
JonesyYour twisting it Jonesy, where did I say all Germans were Nazi’s, not all Muslims are Jihadist’s, but it’s surprising just how people can get carried away…
No I’m really not. Look at the title of the video you posted…the one Bruce rightly pulled you up on. Its a generalisation….you said “the same was said about the Germans, that not all were Nazi’s, and look how that panned out” the inference there being a tarring with the same brush?. If not that what are you actually saying?.
Germany was in a terrible state. The central government was weak. People were desperate for some relief, and Hitler and the NSDAP offered what seemed like easy answers. At that period it was all too easy to believe his lies that the Jews were responsible for Germany’s downfall in the First World War and all of its subsequent troubles — anti-Semitism was alive and well long before Hitler.
So….scan forward to UK 2016….the central Government was weak….it hadnt been expected to get a majority and was under pressure for correctly addressing defecit issues at the cost of austerity. The ‘people’ are offered the easy solution….”its all the immigrants fault, and the EU…theyre behind the immigrants you know that dont you….without the EU and the immigrants there’ll be more money….£350mn a week….lots of hospitals that’ll buy wont it”.
Hitler offered people a way to be proud of Germany again. He told people they really were a master race that had simply been betrayed by the Jews and the Communists..
Maybe he even said ‘nehmen Sie unser Land zurück’.
“We’ll take our country back”.
Muslims and Eurocrats this time eh?. Like I said….funny how the same themes crop up again and again.
Perhaps you need to look at a few more newsreels of the period. Whenever I watch, I see the multitudes on the streets frantically demonstrating their support for the regime. Perhaps they were all planted extras.
..and perhaps you need to work on your sums a bit more John. The largest of the Nuremburg Rallies massed 500,000 supporters to the Nazi banner. The 1933 population of Germany was 66,000,000. You’re good with percentages aren’t you John?. Maybe we see why your political career faltered if you think 7% is a majority?.
JonesyBruce
“but people look at their behaviour and equate it with ‘normal’ Muslins. The vast majority of people of all religions are peaceable and eschew violence, yet there are always extremists.”
Very commendable, but the same was said about the Germans, that not all were Nazi’s, and look how that panned out.
Do you want to look at how that panned out?. It was proven they weren’t all Nazi’s….in fact they were a generous, friendly and hospitable people with a great work ethic and very strong talent pools in science and the arts. They were the victims of a bunch of angry, bigoted, idiots emboldened and lead by a charismatic despot…himself of limited intelligence. Funny how similar themes resurface isnt it?.
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