JonesySounds like most on here.
Close John but I think your line was ‘none shall pass’.
JonesyYour concern is noted John. It is funny you mention Monty Python though. There is that scene from Holy Grail with the Black Knight.
John Cleese plays the role of a bloke who, with a combination of arrogance and ignorance, gets into an ill advised fight with very alarming and unfortunate results. He is left, ultimately, badly screwed whilst still pretending he is the victor.
There’s irony in there somewhere isn’t there John?
JonesyObviously a genuine tragedy that an accident has cost a man his life here and, of course, making light of it is inappropriate in every sense….
….but….
….there was a report from the ROCN regarding this incident that, to me, was an object lesson in finding the silver lining in every cloud. The statement they made was to the extent that the fishing boat was a very small and difficult radar target and they were pleasantly surprised that the missiles seeker was accurate enough to hit it!.
Jonesy….now now John lets not be needlessly silly. China could try to dictate a hideously one sided trade deal….it would still be a trade deal. It has to be a ‘trade deal’ and a ‘mutually beneficial’ one for it to be good news. Track record of our deals with China….nuclear power plants etc….hasnt been so great ever since we sold them plans and tooling for the Austin Montego back in the 90’s.
JonesyNo. We’re paying about £8mn a year for ongoing operations including repatriation flights and thats mostly towards UK personnel manning our border in their country. We’ve spent a few million putting in infrastructure. We’ve paid nothing for damage to local infrastructure and the French are paying their own police. We have a signed agreement with them to say that this happy, for us, state of affairs will continue for a few years. This agreement was signed last August though…they have said they’ll uphold it for now. No word on whether they’ll renew it though.
Jonesy…and if were lucky the French will keep agreeing to hold them on their side of the channel now we’re leaving. If we’re not lucky….and the French public start asking why they owe us any favours….then that lot will be through to Dover.
Then we’ll be lots better off wont we? :stupid:
JonesyDon’t try and make me responsible for your recklessness John!. That’s all your own work.
Gambling that the Germans will roll over for us as your sole basis for avoiding worse immigration control than we have now!.
The Swiss are learning now what it means when everyone knows that half your trade is with the EU it leaves you in a weak position to force demands through. Anyone who thinks we will be in a better position in a couple of years is frankly delusional.
Enjoy your win though John it’s exactly what you deserve ?
JonesyJonesy, you might be surprised to know that the UK has only recently referred to as being ‘in Europe’.
Up until 1985 in the west you had continental Europe, Scandinavia and Great Britain, however, with the UK slowly being drawn into the EU now everyone has had a memory lapse and loudly declare that Great Britain has always been part of Europe.
Perhaps we should now revert to the same again… :eagerness::highly_amused:
MBS you can call it whatever you like just dont risk the bloody trade….thinking bout it its rare to hear the term ‘Scandinavia’ now isnt it?. Guess thats a result of the digital revolution…that thing that so many of the over 50’s Mail readers that John relates to so well havent really grasped yet!.
JonesyIts stated EU policy that to trade with the EU, as part of the EEA, a country must be a signatory to the Schengen agreement.
JonesyThey voted for control; British control; control of their future and not to have that future decided by a corrupt, anti democratic elite
Now please show me the provable basis that supports this view we wont be in Schengen 2 years after Article 50 is triggered. The evidence that we will be is readily available.
Jonesy.Instead you should perhaps admonish the whinging INNERS. They ‘need to acknowledge’ that they lost and have done with it. Or, are you thinking that this argument, now done and dusted, will be rumbling on for the next ten years ?
This, for me, is perfect underscoring of the ensuing problem from the exit vote and why it cant be left to be swept under the carpet and ‘moved on’ from. This idea that Leave ‘won’ when, in truth, the delivered results wont be what they voted for!. The analogy is simple. In a 2nd referendum Remain just has to now make a campaign pledge that everyone gets £500 if Remain takes the ‘win’. Then, after they win, they have a spokesperson pop up and apologise for the mistake but that there is no £500. See how fair the opposite side thinks the result is under those conditions.
Hard to feel comfortable with a result warped by lies and ignorance.
JonesyI was thinking more along the lines of what assets are needed to patrol our EEZ than ill informed speculation about the SAS capturing Sturgeon…. :sleeping:
Chaffers the problem with answering the question is that about 80% of the question is absent!.
What would our EEZ look like?. Does its northernmost boundary hit North Sea on a line extending out to sea from Berwick one side to Carlisle the other?. Already I read that the RN FPS does little in Scottish waters anyway. Where we to drop out of EFCA, which would seem likely, would we wish to stay ‘compatible’ with their systems….I’d suggest so. They, from memory, use the same VMS as the US as well so it would seem absurd to step out of widely employed system for monitoring and management…to then have to build a national one and integrate that.
If we’re staying ‘tied-in’ to the common VMS surveillance is an easier proposition…the issue becomes compliance with whatever our independent regulations are…if these are in fact different to what EFCA sets. Needless to say fiercely beweaponed hulls dont really appear on the scope for that kind of regulatory duty…some analogy of Marine Scotland would seem to make sense. With the new RN 90m opvs as backup.
JonesyJonesy,
Agree with all of that – but, I have noticed in the last few days, some overtures from former colonies such as Australia and New Zealand. On their own, they are small beer. But if in two years we do sew up deals with a number of countries like that, then the pressure is on Europe to make a deal; not the other way around.
The downturn in Chinese demand for raw materials has hit the Aussies hard. My assistant is an Aussie who I see swear viciously at where his shares are a few times a week….he’s been doing that for months. As you say – small beer. If I’m wrong and, as soon as we are able to negotiate, the worlds major economies are fighting each other to get trade deals done and we find a few practical markets I promise I’ll hold my hands up and admit error. I just dont see it though.
I saw a report that Germans were rather interested in the results of the vote – if, as has been suggested that our vote really does change the European Union, this may all turn out rather better than you and I fear.
Again….yes if our leaving can trigger a wave of discovery across Europe that tears down the old, sweeps away the Euro, and paves way for a new European trading entity that doesnt have the machiavellian overtones of federalism then fine. To my mind we were on that trajectory anyway and this exit would just make getting to the same point more expensive for us. Flip side though is that we are now the litmus test for the rest of Europe to peer in at. The political upheaval in the UK post referendum though is hardly cheerleading a path to a gloried hereafter is it. If this doesnt go well for us its going to be the best recruiting poster for closer European integration, among the remaining states, ever. Wouldnt that be an irony!.
I think its time to move on from ‘What if’. It happened. I still don’t like it much, but I’m not going to change it and am not going to try. We have to make the best of it. Whatever else its done, its given the Westminster Hornets nest a good old wallop, and that cant be a bad thing.
To be honest Bruce I still dont think most of them understand what they’ve done. We do have to make the best of it of course…but, for myself, I’m not going to be satisfied until the penny has dropped for as many of them as I can reach. I like the dawning look of realisation on blank, moronic, faces….call it a personality flaw.
JonesyPay more money and get the right to control immigration. More money and a continuation of trade has to be more appealing to the EU than a tariff war, less money and job losses.
If Schengen is even negotiable….they’ve already said it isnt. Why does ‘more money and a continuation of trade’ have to be appealing to the EU…because it is for us so it ‘just has to be’!?. The EU have a market of over 450mn citizens left after we leave….there are other consumers they can pitch at with zero tariffs across the area.
Thats not the case with us is it?. If, by the point this all blows up, we dont have deals set up with India, Brazil and all those other places that Boris (remember him?) said will surely be battering our door down for preferential trading….who do we have to drop in to send our once-EU-bound trade to?. If we are facing a gap between our ‘global deals’ being realised and the end of our free trade with the EU are we in a strong position to make demands on the EU or do we need them more than they need us?.
Trade with the EU makes up about 17% of our GDP……EU trade with UK makes up about 3% of the EU’s revenue. Do you think they dont know who is in the box seat here?.
JonesyLe Pen is an opportunist like any politician – you aint gonna stop that Jonesy .
Agreed….but they have got to be given the opportunity in the first place Baz…..which is what we’ve done…..however unintentionally by many. Law of unintended consequence perhaps but the divisiveness of the Leave campaign was flagged pretty early doors, but, dismissed as scaremongering. Something….something….something….home to roost….something!.
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