JonesyYes but mine and Tony T’s point was that all ‘leavers’ have been tarred with the accusation of being ‘racist’,I just do not get it – I can understand ‘remainers’ being upset/perplexed/worried about the leave vote but to accuse all ‘leave’ voters as racists is absolutely appalling.’Leave’ voters will have voted for a variety of reasons but I doubt supremacist is true for more than a handful.To me it just smacks of sour grapes – nobody expected the result we ended up with but it was a democratic vote – which is more than anybody in the EU will ever get !
rgds baz
Baz,
In some ways there though chap you are guilty of the crime you’re accusing others of. You are insinuating that ‘all’ remain voters are saying ‘all’ leave voters are racist. Just as one sides generalisation is going to be wrong so is the other.
Its also not the position I was taking…but I need say little further as Beermats comment tidies up flawlessly:
Some of the small minority who voted leave for nasty little hate-filled reasons now believe they have majority support, because they want to believe it and facts never really held much sway in these individual’s thought processes anyway.
….when you see Le Pens name next to a Union Jack you know something has gone deeply wrong. We fought that ideology in Europe…and now we are viewed as its new standard bearer….to those that would look for it.
JonesyJonesy – your posting is usually fairly high quality – do you really have come down to that level of posting ?
Genuine comment Baz. The issue is that, to those of that bigotted mindset, Brexit represents an isolationist/supremacist position and a popular one at that. It has reinforced nationalism all across Europe….we’ve seen evidence of that all over. Is it ‘end of days’ drama….no. Is it good news…..equally no!.
JonesySee the problem, Tony, isnt that Remain voters think you’re all racists……the problem is that the racists think you’re all racists.
Bruce,
Its back to its level of 21 June, The FTSE350 has now exceeded that level. Pound is still a little way off however.
You sure about that Bruce. I checked this morning and it was still 7% adrift. Looks like the Jun21 level was 16900’s and were at 16000ish now?. May-early June levels were steady around the low 17000’s for days.
JonesyAppalling news for the INNERS: The FTSE100 has climbed back up to pre Brexit levels and at close of business to-day, the £ was also up but not quite to pre Brexit.
If, in view of this catastrophic news any INNER wishes to make a painless and speedy exit from this mortal coil, I can arrange for you to listen and view a DVD of Robert Peston in full slow and magisterial flow. Your end will be swift.
…and whats the FTSE250 doing John?.
…and what about the word out of the EU that we wont get any special treatment with EEA access?. Looking like we will have to sign on for Schengen if we want 45% of our trade back. Looking good for our ‘soveriegnty’ this isnt it!
JonesyWe seem to have a lot of people criticizing a democratic vote because it didn’t go their way.
They seem to be too preoccupied with their complaints and name calling to waste any of their precious time decrying regimes where any sort if democracy is forbidden.Anyone see any irony here?
Not really no. What’s happened here is that some people of limited wit have voted for something that they were clearly, to the other 48%, never going to get. Is it a free and fair election when one side offers promises they have no intention of delivering?. If those enthusiastic Leave voters, knowing the truth, would have abstained or voted the other way is it any wonder that those on the other side of the debate are saying ‘hang on a minute’???.
The future course of the UK shouldn’t be the result of a number of blatant mistruths….allied to a segment of the electorate so jibbering and mindless that if the fishy chap from Star Wars popped up screaming ‘Its a Trap’ they’d still be mindlessly regurgitating some twaddle about taking the country back!.
JonesyWatch the guy in the back in the blue suit.
This is how we look now boys and girls.
JonesyNew pastime…..poke the idiot.
John et al. The question was posed, by a Leave supporter, as to who were the smart ones. I provided an answer. If you dont recognise yourself in that answer why get all scratchy about it?.
Simple fact is that you allowed yourselves to be duped and swallowed the lies. The fact that the Leave side was so easily hoodwinked isnt small beer either. The whole world knows that 52% of our population is either stupid, ignorant, bigoted or delusional. I had a chat with some Dutch lads yesterday….lads who dont like the idea of EU federalism any more than you or I do. The comment I got was ‘so you people are in a race to the bottom with the Americans are you?’.
The overwhelming sentiment I’ve seen since this vote is disappointment. The sense of abandonment is palpable. Lots of them looked to the UK if not for leadership then certainly for positive direction and guidance…a country with a history of showing the EU up for its mistakes….opt out of the Eurozone….opt out of Schengen….we were the ones who got it right. We were the benchmark that others could be measured against. We had a history, recently, of sticking by them. We were a ‘good friend’. Now they see us running away. Now we’re selfish. Now we’re not interested in fixing something that could be fixed….we’ll leave that to someone else. We are less than what we were.
…and why do we have this climb down….this retreat….because 52% of us thought that Gove, Farage and Boris were the people with the answers. Its no wonder we are a laughing stock right now.
JonesyThere is a current youtube clip from the Oxford Union that has a very erudite speech from Daniel Hannan for pro-Leave…..obviously its flawed and he carefully omits several key points, but, he does get a Tennyson line in so he can be excused small details I imagine.
He is the chap who’s made the statement that there will, post-exit, still have to be immigration from the EU though. Which kind of undermines the whole ‘island apart’ stance most seemed to think they were getting with Leave. Certainly there will not be the reduced pressure on public services if the foreigners are still let in???.
Then theres the German BDI’s statement that they never said trade with the UK should be as it stands today, post-exit, as Boris tried to build on in his Telegraph piece.
Then, just for the sake of it…because its funny, we have Farage backing out on the promise that was on the side of the big red fun bus. No guarantees for diverted money into the NHS let alone 350mn a week.
Who are the smart people Paul?.
The ones who knew what they were voting for.
JonesyHad it been a Remain vote, the reaction could have been a lot worse in some parts I reckon.
I think thats a very fair point Meddle. As to the general point about racism in the Leave camp the best description Ive seen is this:
So the racism thing. I don’t think half of the country are racist. I fear that the racists now think half of the country agree with them.
JonesyI’m more worried about undisciplined robots now. Yet you suggest its gone further and now its undisciplined robots preying on the elderly in Japan and Korea. Its horrific….all those movies where Godzilla comes and saves the day. Here’s hoping eh JSR.
…back on the ignore list you go.
JonesyThese global firms don’t care about this exchange fluctuation. they buy raw materials at global level in bulk and they have hedges to deal with fluctuations. what they care is the quality of labor force (discipline), infrastructure (transport, Ports, Water resources, no financial controls) and R&D capability of university towns.
Water is the key resource not energy.
Didnt you tell us a few days ago though JSR that manpower was unimportant and that robots were the new enabler for the labour force to be downgraded in significance?. Was that a ‘mistake’ perhaps….or is there concern about indisciplined robots now?.
You told us software….by that I assumed you to mean Intellectual Property….was global and transferrable. Now you are saying that the quality of the labour force actually DOES matter. You seem to be able to reverse your position with the speed of a UKIP leader JSR….shame you are a foreigner you’d fit right in!
Jonesywhy will these manufacturers leave when pound values goes down against dollar and Euro. the products from these factories will become more competitive and you can export more to the world.
Exports cheaper but imports more expensive JSR….not being blessed with many raw materials we haven’t already tapped we are quite dependent on imports.
Anyway….
I cant settle with the whole ‘its done now’ piece completely as were not talking about the family dog thats just crapped on the hall rug. Were talking about the greatest threat these islands have seen in 70yrs….and its self-inflicted. I cant quite grasp the reality that says its ok for the economy, the union and the nature of our politics to be gambled with like this.
I do like this piece though….it asks to be shared so I do:
Dom Beaven
13 hrs · Bath ·
Right. **** this. We’re ALL up **** creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.
Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we’re all pissed off but navel gazing ain’t gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we’re the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.
Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just **** off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, *****!). And the first person to say they “want their country back” gets deported to ******* Gibraltar. OK?
Politicians.
David. **** off. Shut the door behind you. Now.
George. You may be a **** but you’re our ****. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You’re on.
Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can’t ever be un-taken. Plus, you’ll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the **** her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she’ll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ******* bus! No captains hat for you I’m afraid.
Theresa. You’re in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you’ve got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you’ll scare the **** out of ’em.
Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ******* love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you’re probably the best politician we’ve got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we’ll make you a Dame once we’re sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.
Opposition party. We’ll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. **** it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?
Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that **** coming. We definitely need more of that good ****!
Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We’re going to Brussels and this ain’t no hen party.
#weneedaplan Share!
JonesyTo be arrested and charged with high treason then the country would have to be ‘invaded’ to capture the leadership…! And as you say the armed forces contain a significant percentage of Scottish personnel, who might have something to say on the subject… I don’t for one second see this scenario playing out, but these are going to be strange times and strange things can happen and wars have started for far less… This is going to be a messy divorce and maybe the EU will want to keep custody of Scotland!
The cost of replacing the loss of Coulport and Faslane, combined with the already increasing costs of the Vanguard replacements would certainly be an eyewatering expense though which could cripple the ‘UK’ defence budget for a number of years to come… Though if it comes to be, I’d put my money on Milford Haven, the other locations would probably crash due to environmental concerns.
You would assume Steve that the referendum would not be a thing easy to keep secret!. The motive forces behind the attempt would be exposed fairly early by the need to introduce legislation to make it an officially recognisable process with a clear mandate as a result. I dont think we’d need to send in SAS to extract Sturgeon from a bunker below Holyrood!. :highly_amused:
Milford Haven has much to recommend it, but, it does see a fair degree of traffic….if you want to deconflict and sanitise to stop a tattletale latching to a sortieing boat ideally its good practice to be able to catalogue and identify everything in the area. Morecambe-Barrow would have the advantage of friendly shores either side of the immediate body of water and most of the traffic is north-south….very little goes east-west into the bay itself. Also theres a need for investment in the area and the locals are used to defence and nuclear sites.
Rii
If Westminster tries this then they’re even dumber than I think they are.
Its possible for you to have a lower opinion???. That does surprise me….you do come across as a sort of Guy Fawkes-ish personality already Rii. Only good one is a dead one etc….unless they are communists of course…then theyre ok arent they?!.
The simple fact is of course they wouldnt as any attempt to hold a referendum wouldnt be done in secret and therefore no vote to leave the union could be sprung on Westminster. Sturgeon has already told the media that the Edinburgh Govt has started the process of drafting legislation for a second referendum. Steve’s scenario, as he has said, is a thought excercise only!
JonesySo here is another thought… Scotland demands a second independence referendum, the Westminster Government says no… so the SNP holds one anyway, wins with a large majority and declares independence the day after… What does the ‘UK’ do then? Overnight the UK nuclear deterrent is left in limbo, the second carrier and the means to dry dock the newly completed QE have been lost, as has most of the active ship building capacity….
So does the ‘UK’ use military force to try to reverse it or accept the situation…? Does Mr Putin deploy his little Green Men to help the peace-loving Scottish people keep their freedom…? Does a EU peacekeeper force deploy along the border…?
Fact could become stranger than fiction…
If the Westminster government say no at the moment the answer is that they dont secede. Theoretically the SNP leadership would be guilty of high treason and jailed if they managed to conduct an unsanctioned referendum and declared independence. In reality of course there would need to be negotiation and agreement before the 2nd referendum could be taken.
In this instance Scotland leaving, on good terms, would be a little-change option. The yards in Scotland are commercially owned so, unless they were suddenly nationalised, contracts with the parent company for drydocking etc would still be valid. The assumption would be that the new Edinburgh govt would be keen to still see warship orders placed at those yards and would not wish to jeopardise a long relationship with the UK MoD.
The deterrent would have to move and Coulport closed of course and new permanent homes found. Likely a new base to deconflict CASD traffic and maintain security. Somewhere around Morecambe Bay up to Barrow would probably be most practical that springs to mind….though there’s a couple of spots on the Antrim coast that would be interesting.
The big problem would be personnel. I dont know what the exact composition of the services are today….but the RN and RAF always had a very good proportion of Scots in the ranks. Losing them would be disastrous and there would be great difficulties in having foreign nationals serving in large numbers in ships companies etc. Without a common foreign policy Edinburgh would presumably have to have some form of veto on the operations that its people might be called on to undertake. Manpower could be a far more crippling problem than any lack of ships or basing.
djcross
If they secede, who will pay for all those on the dole?
….see Portugal.
JonesyBruce…indeed…I think there’s some charity in your view that the BoE only helped a little bit. BBC have just reported draft legislation being prepared in support of a secession. Would the EU want an independent Scotland in the club…Portugal manages to be in with roughly the same GDP and twice the population. The oil price has taken a kicking, but, there’s still decades worth in offshore fields that the Scots would claim. I’d imagine their chances are pretty good.
Moggy,
The FTSE went from 6.38 before the result to 6.13 as standing. The FTSE250 is still 7% adrift. The climb was based on the belief that we would stay in….some say that it was artificial….the facts are that we were at 6.38 though. We didnt need to lose that. It wasnt an automatic correction…it was a deliberate act.
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