JonesyUnicorn,
In wartime ships get used in ways that were not really their intended role. Thus if a request comes in for shore bombardment and a T45 is the only available vessel, then the T45 gets to do shore bombardment.
…and shortly afterwards the TF CO is heading home via the closest friendly airport the ships flight can reach.
IF a T45 is on deployment for the forseeable future it is consorting a CVF or an ARG. T45’s are going to be too scarce in the fleet to be sent off on their own unless its on a sales trip to the Saudi’s. A T45 will NOT be the only escort for either carrier or ARG as ASW screening at the very least will be required. If the NGFS request comes in and the Flag detaches his T45 over a T23 or even a T22B3 he’s off sea-duty swiftly afterward.
As Damien illustrated earlier, with the T42’s in 1982, predominantly their tasking was in keeping with the most effective deployment of their radar/missile system. Very rarely was a secondary tasking assigned to a primary-AAW ship – faced with, at best, 8 T45’s in the whole fleet they will not be risked when another platform can do the job.
JonesyUnbelievable…sorry that you’ve taken such a hit Deano – looked like a nice garden. On the bright side though at least you get out of mowing the lawn for a bit?:eek::cool:
JonesyUnbelievable…sorry that you’ve taken such a hit Deano – looked like a nice garden. On the bright side though at least you get out of mowing the lawn for a bit?:eek::cool:
JonesyBloody hate goats…little obnoxious bleaty things. A goat bit my little girls hand a few years back just because she was trying to feed a little baby goat first….deserve all they get goats do! :diablo:
JonesyBloody hate goats…little obnoxious bleaty things. A goat bit my little girls hand a few years back just because she was trying to feed a little baby goat first….deserve all they get goats do! :diablo:
JonesyKev
I still think it’s a cruel and stupid thing to do. But more concerning is the indiscipline which allows/encourages soldiers to do such things.
Thing is though Kev its not abnormal for service personnel to behave in such a fashion. The goats presence here is incidental…if the aim was to kill or mutilate the goat, which is the assumption some seem to be leaping to here (and is the thing I find objectionable), then they failed spectacularly…why did they not just tie their little IED round the goats neck?. The way I see this is that they just wanted to have a giggle with something explosive. I understand that because I’ve done it!. One of my mates came back from Boz with a couple of hundred yards of detcord and it was his party piece, with some able assistance, to cut the grass on his lawn with it!.
Irresponsible yes of course it was….but funny as hell and it helped a good lad readjust after witnessing some god awful scenes. Now a load of civvies might want to condemn that if they wish, they have every right, after all I hate to think of the number of grasshoppers we surely did slaughter and we never, I am ashamed to admit, put out leaflets advising responsible pet owners to keep Tiddles or Rover inside that day!!.Fact is though on the day we wouldnt have given a toss what ‘Concerned of West Sussex’ would have said about our actions because what we were doing was so much more important. If you cannot understand why then I’m afraid I cannot explain it – it must be a service thing.
In answer to your comment re American bashing, whatever you think of me , nothing was further from my mind.
In no way was that levelled in your direction Kev. Sorry if you got the impression I was hitting you with such a generalist swipe.
You have young Americans, Brits and soldiers of other nationalities courageous enough to fight for their Country and to do their Government’s bidding. I think it’s now time these Governments acknowledged the sacrifice and the waste and brought all these courageous young men and women home. If they are to die, at least give them the dignity of fighting for something worth dying for.
Good sentiments Kev, but, I think that a lot of serving personel wouldnt thank you for it. They, at least some I’ve spoken to, dont see the political manoevering and bickering or the fashionable antiwar rhetoric of the chattering classes. They see the effects of ‘freedom fighters’ terrorising and brutalising their own people and want to make them pay for it. They see the kids wandering round playing with live ordnance they’ve scrounged up somewhere, they see the communities of decent normal people who’re trying to get themselves put back on their feet and they see it as their job to help with that. If for no other reason that its the right thing to do.
Cheers
JonesyKev
I still think it’s a cruel and stupid thing to do. But more concerning is the indiscipline which allows/encourages soldiers to do such things.
Thing is though Kev its not abnormal for service personnel to behave in such a fashion. The goats presence here is incidental…if the aim was to kill or mutilate the goat, which is the assumption some seem to be leaping to here (and is the thing I find objectionable), then they failed spectacularly…why did they not just tie their little IED round the goats neck?. The way I see this is that they just wanted to have a giggle with something explosive. I understand that because I’ve done it!. One of my mates came back from Boz with a couple of hundred yards of detcord and it was his party piece, with some able assistance, to cut the grass on his lawn with it!.
Irresponsible yes of course it was….but funny as hell and it helped a good lad readjust after witnessing some god awful scenes. Now a load of civvies might want to condemn that if they wish, they have every right, after all I hate to think of the number of grasshoppers we surely did slaughter and we never, I am ashamed to admit, put out leaflets advising responsible pet owners to keep Tiddles or Rover inside that day!!.Fact is though on the day we wouldnt have given a toss what ‘Concerned of West Sussex’ would have said about our actions because what we were doing was so much more important. If you cannot understand why then I’m afraid I cannot explain it – it must be a service thing.
In answer to your comment re American bashing, whatever you think of me , nothing was further from my mind.
In no way was that levelled in your direction Kev. Sorry if you got the impression I was hitting you with such a generalist swipe.
You have young Americans, Brits and soldiers of other nationalities courageous enough to fight for their Country and to do their Government’s bidding. I think it’s now time these Governments acknowledged the sacrifice and the waste and brought all these courageous young men and women home. If they are to die, at least give them the dignity of fighting for something worth dying for.
Good sentiments Kev, but, I think that a lot of serving personel wouldnt thank you for it. They, at least some I’ve spoken to, dont see the political manoevering and bickering or the fashionable antiwar rhetoric of the chattering classes. They see the effects of ‘freedom fighters’ terrorising and brutalising their own people and want to make them pay for it. They see the kids wandering round playing with live ordnance they’ve scrounged up somewhere, they see the communities of decent normal people who’re trying to get themselves put back on their feet and they see it as their job to help with that. If for no other reason that its the right thing to do.
Cheers
JonesySteve,
The gulches on a 42 do get a bit cosy dont they!!!.
The Darings, believe it or not, will have 6 man stateroom accomodation for the stokers and matelots and, if memory serves, two man berths for the senior rates. God only knows how the officers are going to live – presumably jacuzzi’s and nubile serving wenches or something!!!. Point being the 45’s are going to have more in common with the Love Boat than with a 42 or Leander!.
The AAW loadout is 48 PAAMS/Aster missiles of either Aster15 or 30 flavour. Some debate is ongoing that we may actually have only purchased the Aster30 but thats yet to be confirmed in the public domain AFAIK. As initially concieved this should be enough but, as mentioned to Musashi, the official line is that there is room for up to another 24 if necessary.
GWS30 in surface mode is something that T45 cannot replicate. Saw the footage of that one once and mist all chrighty I’ll not forget it – big missile travelling fast maketh big hole!. Aster, with its seperating terminal stage, does not have anywhere near the same kinematic punch so T45 will have to rely on the Lynxes Skua’s initially but, as proven in 1991, they are good enough to pot FACs with any day of the week and were not looking likely to go up against anyone with serious shipping any time soon!.
JonesyJonesy, some sanity at last!
Steady on…wouldnt go that far!
Personally I think more cells for Asters and maybe a cruise missile would be the first “weapon priorities”. You make a good point about the Burkes – it was realised with the later design that Harpoons weren’t needed, as other escorts and carrier-based aircraft could deal with that sufficiently.
Yeah Pred makes a good point above…the overheads do show that gap as being a bit on the narrow side for a third row of cells. The official line is that weight and space margins have been left to allow an increase in the VLS capacity though. Presumably therefore room has been left to shift the existing modules about a bit.
if so, how many and what would you use them for?
The how many is simple…another 3×8 modules down the centreline in the VLS farm. What would they be?. The options seem to be fullbore, strike length, Mk41 or Sylver A70 – for the former we would have to pay to integrate Aster with the Mk41 and for the latter we’d have to pay to integrate the TacTom (potentially) with the Sylver tubes – or go with SCALP-N. Truthfully i’m not so sure on which way round makes more sense.
Mk41 is certainly the more versatile, but, what value is the ability to launch VLA, quadpacked ESSM, NSSM or SM2/3/6 to us when we will never use those missiles?.
By all appearances the Sylver tubes offer a very compact lightweight installation that is automatically capable of handling PAAMs and its only real drawback is that it wont, out-of-the-box, be capable of handling TACTOM. Then again though we do not operate VL-launched TACTOM and there would be little commonality, in launcher terms, between the TTL version the SSN fleet uses and the VLS variant so there is no significant reasons why that is really a huge handicap?. It could be that SCALP-N is good kit, certainly the Crabs are deeply in love with Stormshadow, and it will serve our needs adequately so we dont need to introduce the second VLS type.
The one thing that SFerrin mentions that I would very, very much like to see on a T45 is RATTLRS. That, if it ever happens, would be a transformational warfighting capability to introduce – if we ever get the joined-up ISTAR to support it that is!
JonesyThe point, whether you’re into frightening goats or not, is being entirely missed here.
If, as DJJ suggests in his post on page one, that an order was given by the American Government/Military that no further videos were to be posted on sites like Youtube, then those soldiers who contrived to post that video are therefore guilty of breaking a direct order.
If so, aren’t they likely then to face charges of something like conduct unbecoming or conduct prejudicial?
Regards,
kev35
Hi Kev,
Yep on the point about them acting in direct contravention to standing orders they are clearly in the mire – no argument there.
The problem here is though that no-one else really cared about that, hand on heart, most of them would have to admit to not giving much of a damn about this specific goat – they just wanted to have a pop at the Americans and, by god, they were not going to let little details like the actual lack of animal cruelty shown in the video get in the way of them having a jolly good whinge!.
Now, seeings as the ‘animal cruelty’ thing is looking a little flimsy they are leaping on the bandwagon, you have so conveniently provided, of the contravention of standing orders and some spurious references to hearts and minds!.
More and more Monty Python as this progresses if you ask me!!!
JonesyThe point, whether you’re into frightening goats or not, is being entirely missed here.
If, as DJJ suggests in his post on page one, that an order was given by the American Government/Military that no further videos were to be posted on sites like Youtube, then those soldiers who contrived to post that video are therefore guilty of breaking a direct order.
If so, aren’t they likely then to face charges of something like conduct unbecoming or conduct prejudicial?
Regards,
kev35
Hi Kev,
Yep on the point about them acting in direct contravention to standing orders they are clearly in the mire – no argument there.
The problem here is though that no-one else really cared about that, hand on heart, most of them would have to admit to not giving much of a damn about this specific goat – they just wanted to have a pop at the Americans and, by god, they were not going to let little details like the actual lack of animal cruelty shown in the video get in the way of them having a jolly good whinge!.
Now, seeings as the ‘animal cruelty’ thing is looking a little flimsy they are leaping on the bandwagon, you have so conveniently provided, of the contravention of standing orders and some spurious references to hearts and minds!.
More and more Monty Python as this progresses if you ask me!!!
JonesyExactly right Musashi.
The ship has a Mk8 Mod1 mounted because thats what we have to mount. BAe have been working on a new lightweight 6″ mount based on AS90 ordnance but its nowhere near an operational system and we do not delay desperately needed anti-air capability for a main gun mount that is purely a secondary system.
The argument of ‘why do you need a gun if this ia single role ship’ is so facile as to be scarcely worth responding too. Medium calibre guns are employed for far more than NGFS again as Musashi states. Starshells and chaff rounds can be fired from Mk8’s which have obvious utilisation and then, as stated, the sub-warfighting peace-support roles like anti-drug and anti-piracy taskings exist – where the crash and splash of an inbound 4.5″ shell can, and has been, marvellously coercive on the most toughend drug-runner.
Shore bombardment, however, was precisely what the T42s were regularly doing in the Falklands, with great effect
Will have to check but, from memory, the only 42 that took part in NGFS ops was the Glasgow….on only one occasion. The rest, as will be the case with the Darings, were far too critical on picket tasking to be wasted on NGFS that the Rothesay’s or 21’s could do every bit as capably.
a SSM fit of Harpoon and of course there is lots of space for a long range SSM fit but will we ever see it????
As Musashi staes again the capability for operating GWS60 is integrated into Darings Combat Data System its just that the missiles arent being mounted. This shouldnt be a big suprise to anyone as the reasoning for its low-prioritisation is exactly the same as why you wont see any Mk141 tubes on a Flight IIA Arleigh Burke…they are not needed at present.
As for the T45, it looks pug-ugly to me compared to a T42, and awfully top-heavy. Be interesting to see what the sea trials say about it.
Not teaching you to suck Eggs Damien but there IS a reason why the ship is in excess of 20m in the beam. Aesthetics are subjective everywhere but I wouldnt hold my breath waiting for this thing to capsize!
JonesyYou have to love the kind of arbitrary data that appears from sources who should be authoritative (by this I mean Janes not the good Mr Crobato!).
110dB where?
In the engine room is pretty good…..up to 1CZ away is not comfortable but is a step in the right direction…..110dB at 2CZ’s marks the 093 as a very expensive coffin for its crew!.
The other problem here is the comparison to an early US 688 boat. This at first reading sounds quite impressive….then you recall that the technology has moved on two generations since the 688. The equivalent comparison, for an Astute or Virginia class boat to an 093, would be of a UK S-Class against a Sov-era November or Vic-I. While it is undoubted that good tactics and a good deal of luck can balance the equation to a degree the gradient there is, equally undoubtedly, a steep one and not in the PLAN crews’ favour!.
JonesyWhat animal cruelty?. The modest startling of one goat? Or is it the destruction of habitat you are concerned about?. Could it be the poor defenceless bush that got blown up could potentially be home to several rare species?.
Good lord man I think your environmental crusade should be a lot more successful if you started a bit further up the offenders list than a few lads kicking back with an MRE bomb!
JonesyWhat animal cruelty?. The modest startling of one goat? Or is it the destruction of habitat you are concerned about?. Could it be the poor defenceless bush that got blown up could potentially be home to several rare species?.
Good lord man I think your environmental crusade should be a lot more successful if you started a bit further up the offenders list than a few lads kicking back with an MRE bomb!
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