PLA-MKIITut tut… Where has the discussion branched off to? BTW don’t think “Chinks” would be appreciated by our Chinese colleagues. Its a bit like “Japs”, “Niggers”, “Limeys” and “Yanks”.
Pakistan never plays games in her procurement, they are always very serious and focused on their purchases. I can’t remember a time when they pretended to purchase something just to dig politics.
Its probably the reason they are very seriously taken even though they don’t have deep pockets. They are known for decisive, sometimes fast purchases.
This particular purchase makes a lot of sense for maritime reasons: would significantly restrict the Indian CBG while compensating for abysmal ship based AD.
That, I think is the main reason for considering the purchase. Incidentally, they could also prove to be the best antidote for the Rafale and for having more political clout in the ME.
I wish Bangladesh could purchase Su35s, but would be happy with JH7Bs.
I think the stumbling point is that PAF would want Chinese/varied munitions. This would be cost prohibitive to integrate. Buying the frame from Russia and avionics / weapons from China (Chinese radar), would be very complicated and prone to bugs.
So, two possible choices are there – Chinese radar and weapons or integration of 3-4 Chinese/Pakistani weapons such as the CM400AKG, C802, RAAD, sd10/PL15.
Another sticking point would be what goodies it comes with such as R27s… LRAAM.
If these sticking points can be resolved and the price is right, we could see 20-36 Su35s within this decade.
PLA-MKIIthe more AoA, the more drag, and the more deceleration, thrust aren’t up to the task,
altho most recent fighters was tested to 100 degree AoA or more,
that sort of deceleration is detrimental in battle.like the test pilot in the F-35 vs F-16 concluded
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?135460-test-pilot-quot-F-35-can-t-dogfight-quot/page10
The qtn then becomes what is the optimal tradeoff between ITR and STR. It may be instructive to look at how other aircraft designed later dealt with this tradeoff such as the Eurofighter, Rafale and FC1 (without going into the 5th gen paradigm to keep it an apples to apples comparison). It would seem these jets tried to find a middle ground weighted towards STR.
PLA-MKIIWhy are responses like this allowed in the forum? Why are posters like this allowed to get away with their behavior time and time again?
only in PLA-Stan, where 3rd gen aircraft can be upgraded to 5th gen standards, the US is the cause of all the world’s problems, ISIS can build an air force, and dozens of Air forces are flying JF-17s, which are more capable than Su-30MKIs
[
There is a 2 seater planned and likely to be available by the time frame being considered -2020.in other words, there is no 2 seater version built or being built, let alone one designed for LIFT. Its still a paper project that for some reason.. Turkey should go for despite your acknowledging there’s plenty of LIFTS out there..
you haven’t even mentioned one practical reason why Turkey should choose a non-existing JF-17 for their advance training needs.
PLA-MKIIHaving an aviation industry does not mean Turkey will develop a LIFT. They have enough projects to stay busy with including a stealth plane, an attack helicopter, a MALE UAV, a trainer with an attack version and a host of other smaller projects.
Backwards is a matter of highly subjective opinion along with the idea that the FC1 is a “3rd generation” aircraft, assuming u mean it in the western sense and not the Chinese.
Every issue does not have to come down to someone’s panties and what not.
Industrial deals are made that do not necessitate a myriad of other options. Of course there are many options for LIFT, however, the FC1 may just be the right deal for Turkey.
There is a 2 seater planned and likely to be available by the time frame being considered -2020.
Meaningful arguments sink in, posturing does not…
PLA-MKIIA lot of places are using cheap Chinese helicopter like UAVs, including infamously ISIS, and who knows who else. Apparently they use it for recon and directing artillery.
Also used in Kashmir by possibly both sides involved. Maybe the reason behind the recent spate of deadly artillery attacks. One Indian one was shot down not too long ago.
PLA-MKIII think the first course of action is to make a judgment (a judgment and nothing more) of what ranges and altitudes a fighting arm is expecting to fight at. It is only then that weapons, specs, tactics can be nailed.
Here are some scenarios:
Scenario 1:
1. SAMs/UCAVs reducing the basic interceptor role. Creating a barrier that can be reinforced and augmented by fighters
2.fighters flying higher and faster, supported by AWACs to whittle away enemy defenses while overcoming ground based LRSAM effectiveness.
3. Opposing fighters attempting to target AWACs and other airborne assets
Most combat in this scenario will be long range, shoot and scoot exercises (unless there is a disruptive technology at play)
What one would come to would be something like the J20 or T50 as the design choice.
The Americans unfortunately or fortunately, do not have a specific scenario to play to. They, as the reigning global empire have to prepare for highly diverse scenarios. Their designs thus end up being solid all round performers at the cost of price and the “mediocrity of the generalist”.
The alternative strategy would have been to build specialist aircraft for 3-5 different scenarios. In retrospect, this may have been the better choice, but we will never know. The best we can do is imagine a modern relative of the F14, an F23, an A7, F111 or a Fairy Gannet.
For each nation or nation category, these answers will be different. For my country, if we could get Hq9s or s400s, I can easily see why the maneuverability of an F7BGI would be good enough. Aerodynamics wise the f7G variants are not overshadowed by other designs at 20,000 feet.
The introduction of JF17s poses more of a naval challenge than anything else. It is not like F7s became obsolete maneuverability wise. Range wise and bvr wise maybe. The likely response will probably be FC1s of our own.
PLA-MKIICould be particularly useful in mountainous terrain. Or in places like Bangladesh, riverine, paddyfields, local lands. With laser guided rockets, could be a real value proposition.
PLA-MKIICould that be a lidar up front?! Just speculating..,
PLA-MKIII imagine Turkey will need to replace LIFT T-38s at some point not too far into the future. If we are looking at around 2020, the FC1 two seated may just be the plane for it. I imagine a barter deal could be arranged. Would be really cool to see the FC1 in TuAF colors.
PLA-MKIITechnically speaking, wouldn’t it be possible to fly a super tucano off a harrier carrier? That could prove to be a value proposition…
PLA-MKIIWho told you I can’t read Dutch?
I find my observation quite substantive. Whoever the pilot was, he was hardly using his own words. I don’t mind any pilot praising his jet as long as it sounds natural and believable. Have you ever stepped out of your Porsche saying “it’s of unprecedented value”? WTF?
Unprecedented value… Only a salesman talks like that least of all a fighter pilot. What exactly are the details of this evaluation?
PLA-MKIIWhy, were all PAF F-16A/Bs MLUed?
Yes they are. Even the Jordanian ones added later[PHP][/PHP] are but not to the same standard.
PLA-MKIIJ-7 has to be the worst jet to operate. MiG-21bis is a superior jet that enjoys multitudes of hours between major work over J-7. An old MiG-21bis is probably still easier to maintain than a new J-7, which is why China exports so few.
Hi Madrat, would you be able to qualify your statement with data? Would appreciate that
PLA-MKIIThe UAV does not look like a cheap knockoff. Looking at the materials and the design choices, this seems a very serious weapon system. I would not be surprised if its significantly better than the predator, remember the predator was designed as an ultra cheap model with near zero redundancy (the reason for many of the crashes). Surprise you as it might, China today is not in the same mindframe as far as serious products for its own forces is concerned.
PLA-MKIIWhile I understand that turbojets are gas guzzlers, their upfront costs and maintenance costs can be less (?). The cost of maintaining a J7 is legendary both money wise and in its simplicity. MTBF for the very last gen of turbojets is very reasonable. Third world forces do not need to train much and one can augment training with alternate aircraft and simulators.
One could have for instance (like Bangladesh), Yak advanced trainers that can simulate different aircraft to augment training. Israel wld use F16s to give flight hrs to f15 pilots.
Again, the dominant idea of having a super expensive swiss army knife that can do it all doesn’t help this strategy. If one has a decent attack aircraft (light) like an alpha jet or something like the Chinese L15 yak130 or L159, one can easily augment flight hrs on the cheap. Additionally, u can have pilot training as a progressive step by step element like the PAF = basic trainer – intermediate trainer – advanced trainer – f7 – mirage rose / jf17 – f16. So by the time one is flying a premium jet, one is already well trained. All u need is currency on the type and preserving ur skill set.
Also, recall that with specialization of roles, one does not have to train for everything. If u fly F7s, u don’t need to practice strike missions, again lowering need for training.
The JH7 has one of the easiest engines (incidentally a turbofan) that is cheap, reliable and effective. Maybe it doesn’t use platinum plated parts but it gets the job done reliably. Isn’t that what a weapon of war should be?
Now, let us look at the analogy of a cricket team. If one team only has all rounders in its team, would it be the best possible team? Recall the Bangladesh team in yester years we had many mediocre spin ballers cum batsmen. We didn’t win much with that combo. Now we have specialist fast ballers, and we are playing better cricket than ever. Our fast ballers are not flashy or in the league of a Wasim Akram, Shoaib Akhter, Brett Lee, etc. But they are decent, specialized fast ballers.
It seems the air forces of the world are stuck with platinum plated all rounders that cost a lot to buy, operate and maintain and train.
One of the best American football teams in history was not a team of superheros, but more average players, each playing a specialized role within their team, and working in unison. U didn’t have a line backer trying to play all parts of the game.
If we look at the great wars of our time, specialization was always the way it worked. Look at the aircraft types in WWII. Look at the performance of “multirole” aircraft in Vietnam. I am reminded of the Thunder chief and the F4. What a fiasco that was.
Sanity returned with the LWF program but again the mil industry complex went back to try to sell winder weapons, the Tiger tanks of the sky.
Truth is, we need T34s of the sky rather than Tiger tanks. Yes, clean sheet designs for such would be great BUT we don’t have those. The closest we have in the East are F7s, J8s, JH7As, Mirages, F-5s, f4s, MiG-27s, Su-24s… Etc all progressively getting older (except for some of the Chinese models).
Every fighter since, other than perhaps the FC1 is trying to be an over engineered wunder weapon. God forbid another Great war breaks out, these fleets will prove to be death nails. Would not sustain the fight beyond a few months with no easy Stalin style mass replacement possible.
Sign In
