R J A TaylorThanks Richard! I think you only have to look at the messages posted on this board and others regarding NX611 and VP441 to see that your early preservation efforts are very highly egarded……………………………Best wishes Alan.
Ps welcome to the forum and I am sure if you would like to share any more of your experiences,they would be greatly received!
Your comments are very much appreciated Alan. Keep up your own valued contribution to the Aviation Preservation Scene – as your ‘Forum Signature’ profoundly states “Those that can, ‘DO’, those that can’t be bothered ‘TALK ABOUT IT’ !!! Alright we’re talking about it now, but at least we can be proud of having ‘DONE’ something of value to benefit others, young and old alike.
With regards to my sharing more of my personal experiences with you in future ‘Forum’ threads, rest assured I’ll continue to contribute wherever my input is of interest or potential value.
Kindest Regards
Richard
R J A TaylorI’ve revived this thread as a result of the link from the NX611 Double Anniversary thread. I looked here, thought wow I missed that (in Sep ’04). (etc, etc………….
Hi ‘Gnome’
Glad my ‘Forum’ thread {LANCASTER NX611 – ‘Double ANNIVERSARY’ REUNION EVENT} has had additional side benefits to that of the original theme subject matter, namely the search for “old mates”, in that it pointed you to this relatively ‘old’ thread.
As my old friend, and fellow ‘Forum’ contributor, Laurie Bean would unhesitantly agree “YOU CAN NEVER GET ENOUGH OF THIS AIRCRAFT” – keep the thread live for as long as possible!!!!
Kind Regards 😉
Richard
R J A TaylorMr Taylor may I take this opportunity to say how much I enjoyed the article in Flypast on the rescue and trial and tribulations involved with NX611’s early years and to say thank you to yourself and your colleagues for all your efforts in securing all the aircraft that you did so that we can still enjoy them today,and if a book was written I would certainly be interested in a copy!
Regards Alan Longstaff.
Hi Alan
Thanks for the kind words. It’s totally gratifying to know that today’s generations of people (young and old), especially those that weren’t even ‘a twinkle in their mother’s eye’ when our somewhat pioneering preservation efforts were in full swing, so to speak, are today able to enjoy the rewards of our hard (but totally enjoyable in retrospect) work and ‘youthful enthusiasm’ (not to mention nievity and gullability !!).
I see from your Profile and previous ‘Forum’ postings that you are a volunteer with the Air Atlantique Classic Flight and your young son seems to share your enthusiasm. You have probably experienced similar ‘highs’ and ‘lows’ in your involvement with that organisation so I am sure you will have some appreciation of the mix of emotions that can so often be generated when taking an active role.
I wish you well with your own worthwhile efforts and again thank you for expressing your appreciation of our (hitherto unsung) efforts to preserve some of this country’s finest examples of aviation heritage.
Very Best Wishes 😉 🙂
Richard
R J A TaylorRichard,
Just seen your post. I would very much like to attend but it is 2 days too late for me. I fly to the States on 12 May! There will be a side trip whilst there. Guess where and for what!!
Regards,
Laurie.
Good to hear from you again Laurie.
I just had a feeling that, as soon as the ‘reunion’ date was fixed, it would conflict with some people’s diary commitments!!!!!!! Martin has ‘fixed’ the 14th May date with Fred and Harold so we can’t change that. Is your UK departure date ‘set in stone’ or ‘moveable’ ? It would have been great to meet up with you at LAHC and share memories ‘in person’ – any remote chance of you being able to delay departure, say until the Sunday or Monday after reunion?????
When are you actually arriving back in UK?
Re your US “side trip” (he says with ‘total’ jealousy inflection in voice!!!), I hope you’re going fully equipped with (digi) camera / camcorder and plenty of film / memory card(s) !!!! Have you had any offers of a spare seat on camera chase plane to secure more air-to-air shots of VP441 as she performs over that magnificent Montana countryside??? YES I’M TURNING YELLOW at the very thought !!!!! Post as many pics. as you can on your return won’t you.
[IMG]
R J A Taylor‘RJA’
must say I found the articles ref NX611 fascinating as she is now located just down the road from where I live and I pop in to EK when I’m passing plus of course for the taxi runs.. from the article, its clear that the group involved did a great job firstly getting her here and then ensuring her survival..I think we owe you a vote of thanks!! hope your get together is a success..
Neil.
Neil
Thanks for that. It’s taken 25+ years for the “real” story (some at least – much still has to be related by those of us deeply involved at the time on the ‘front line’ as it were !!!) behind the back-breaking and (often) heart-breaking efforts to ensure the preservation of Lanc. NX611 and Seafire FR47 VP441 for the Nation (not to forget the Canadair F.86E Sabre (XB733/MM19607/G-ATBF) who’s current whereabouts still remains unclear – other ‘Forum’ threads have attempted to solve this puzzle).
‘HAPS’ and ‘Reflectaire’ were only a couple of the aircraft preservation groups that struggled to survive in those days; there was no ‘Lottery Fund’ money available in those early days of the British Aircraft Preservation scene and a great reliance was held on securing ‘sponsership’ from local / national businesses in return for a degree of free advertising. In our case this mainly took the form of ‘credit bombs’ which were painted on the port side of the Lanc’s nose (my earlier photo illustrates these).
I’m sure you’ve already purchased a copy of the publication “Story of a Lanc’ (still available through LAHC at East Kirkby) which I contributed to in the mid 1970s by providing photos and personal information on NX611’s past history. This publication gives a very comprehensive history of ‘her’ life (to date) but I’m sure there is still a niche in the market for another book (at some stage) which would give an insight into the more ‘personal’ experiences and recollections of the relatively small band of preservationists who put so much of their own time and money into securing and working towards the restoration and public display of both historic aircraft and vintage civil and military vehicles. Events (and certain personalities……I’ll say no more!!) may have prevented us from ultimately achieving the successful Aviation and Military Vehicle Museum that we all aspired to in those heady days, but we still “tingle with great pride” every time we see the wonderful and highly successful East Kirkby ‘Aviation Heritage Centre’ and at least one of “OUR” historic aircraft as the central attraction!! Thanks go out to Fred and Harold (and their dedicated ‘team’) for their unswerving fortitude and foresight in rescuing NX611 from an uncertain future and for ensuring that this country retains such a valuable piece of its history in a ‘live’ state which young and old alike can enjoy and wonder at !
Getting back to you Neil, how about sending me a Private Message (PM) and giving me a little bit of personal background on your interests, in particular those surrounding LAHC. Would be nice to maintain contact, either via this ‘Forum’ or maybe by meeting up sometime in the future at East Kirkby. My wife and I travel up to Lincs. quite often these days as we are actively considering ‘retiring’ to “Bomber Country” (We almost bought a property in Dogdyke Road, Coningsby in 2003 but our sale fell through!!).
Look forward to hearing from you. 🙂
[IMG]
R J A TaylorThere was a an article in flypast recently about this aircraft and one of the pics had a caption of whats left of the aircraft?? It showed a small pile of parts including the tail section. I was wondering if this aircraft was scrapped or had an accident or something or was this photo taken up[on its reassembly??
Any ideas?
Peter
The Flypast article (Jan. 2005 Edition) featured one photo of Lancaster NX611 at Lavenham Airfield, Suffolk, England during an engine run on 21st July 1969. The tail unit, cowling and props. of the Seafire FR47 VP441 were laid out on the hardstanding in front of the Lanc. whilst the main airframe was being re-assembled by the Royal Navy personnel from RNAS Culdrose, Cornwall. Those lads had delivered the aircraft to Lavenham on a ‘Queen Mary’ low-loader the previous day (20th July) (picture on Page 82 of the Flypast article) and successfully had ‘her’ standing on her undercarriage, wings etc. fitted by the end of the day. The tail unit was the last to be attached as the fuselage had been supported on a metal trellis whilst the re-assembly took place.
I hope this has answered your question. As “Guzzineil” has pointed out, this aircraft is now in Montana, USA and fully restored to flying condition, thanks to the stalwart efforts of Ezells Aviation. Her first post-restoration flight took place on 14th April 2004. She’s really a sight for sore eyes – a real credit to her restorers.
I see from your ‘Public Profile’ that your interests include “Restoring a Lancaster Bomber” . Would that be the “Lucky Lancaster FM159” (Nanton Lancaster Society, Alberta) by any chance? Have you been actively involved with that aircraft’s preservation?
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by Mark12
R J A Taylor,A fascinating post.
I well remember the angst in the preservation world over the machinations of the HAPS/Reflectaire saga – the blood flowed……………………
Mark
Thanks Mark for the cockpit canopy photos. I take it that the then co-owners of Seafire 46 ‘LA564’ were Peter Arnold and Neville Franklin ? What’s the current state of that airframe ?
You briefly mentioned the “preservation world’s” reaction to the period surrounding the nastiness of the “HAPS/Reflectaire saga” (as I’m afraid it’s predominantly remembered). I personally hated the divisive atmosphere amongst certain (‘leading’ {??})persons (well known names to those of us actively involved at the time).
These people purported to be true aviation preservationists, yet on the face of it appeared to put their own self esteem / personal interests / misplaced importance /etc. ahead of the aims and aspirations of the dedicated band of volunteers who became (mostly unwittingly) enbroiled in the unhappy events of the time.
I don’t wish to dwell on the unpleasant side of the saga, however, as, despite this there are still many happy and unforgettable memories of that period. My flight in Lancaster NX611, for instance, from Biggin Hill to Lavenham on 30th March 1969 can never be surpassed as it was a “chance of a lifetime” experience. In complete contrast the often traumatic experience of “living” on site in the airfield control tower on Lavenham Airfield during the cold and snow of the winter of 1969/70 is equally unforgettable. Despite this, it was a time that I would never want to have missed !!
I have the quiet satisfaction of believing that all our efforts to keep the aircraft (and vehicle) collection out of the clutches of the scrapman ultimately paid dividends.
I honestly believe that without those personal sacrifices (considerable – in the case of some of us at the time) of the relatively small band of ‘true’ preservationists who remained ‘actively’ involved to the very end (with very minimal resources compared to today’s scene), aircraft which are in existance to this very day (NX611 and VP441 are the shining examples) providing such a great deal of pleasure to so many, may have been lost to the world for ever !!
What a difference there would have been if there had been a greater sense of recognition of the true value of our aviation heritage in the 1950s/’60s/’70s.
BUT THAT’s ONLY ME TALKING – WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT !!
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by ALBERT ROSS
Thanks for that Laurie. I always thought the Fleet Air Arm owned it when at Culdrose and I believe it was bought by an organisation called Reflectair and it resided at Blackpool and Laverton, gradually deteriorating. How wonderful to see it looking like this again. What would it take for them to bring it to the UK for Flying Legends at Duxford and to Yeovilton?
Albert
You might get a clearer picture of the UK history of VP441 (during 1969 – 1972) from my recent Forum posting :
http://forum.airforces.info/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23796
Best Wishes
R. J. A.
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by Bograt
Yes, I see what you mean now, Mark…..I’m slightly less confused than before! I hadn’t realised she was at Booker for so long, just thought she was passing through briefly. I assume that your photo is in the PPS hangar?I take it that Reflectaire gave her a coat of paint, judging by the colour picture.
I’m still recovering from the news (and the fantastic photos that have been posted) of the wonderful ‘post restoration’ flights of this beautiful aircraft, so I’m finding it difficult to dwell on the past, but for accuracy and completion I have to clarify a few points and dates.
In Mark 12’s previous posting he listed significant dates in the history of VP441, but I have to make a few corrections :-
(1) Arrival at Lavenham Airfield on 20th July 1969:
VP441 arrived at Lavenham Airfield (Alpheton, Suffolk) at 12.30hrs. on Sunday 20th July 1969 (not 1968) in a dismantled state, on a Royal Navy ‘Queen Mary’ low-loader trailer after its long road journey from RNAS Culdrose.
The RN crew remained ‘local’ (literally – “Rose and Crown”, Bridge Street – to those who know the area!) overnight and during Monday 21st July greatly assisted in the reassembly of the aircraft (in the open air) on the site of one of the former WWII (487th Bombardment Group USAAF) airfield’s dispersal hardstands (alongside the Lancaster NX611 (then christened “Guy Gibson” and coded HA-P) and the (still) dismantled Canadair F86 Sabre (G-ATBF / Italian AF 19607 etc.)
(2) Arrival at RAF Hullavington (Hangar Building No. 85) on 25th January 1970:
VP441 (once again in dismantled state) was loaded on to a flat-back lorry at Lavenham Airfield on Saturday 24th January 1970 in readiness for its overnight transportation by road to RAF Hullavington, Wiltshire (some 6 miles north of the town of Chippenham). The aircraft safely arrived at Hangar Building No. 85 , RAF Hullavington, just before midday on Sunday 25th January 1970, and by 22.00hrs that night was once again reassembled, wings attached and standing on her undercarriage.
(3) Arrival at Blackpool Airport (Squires Gate) on Thursday 25th June 1970:
On Wednesday 24th June 1970, with the invaluable assistance of 2 RAF personnel from nearby RAF Lyneham, together with a number of Reflectaire staff (myself included !) and dedicated ‘museum’ volunteers, VP441 was dismantled (again) under extremely difficult conditions as I recall. By late that evening the aircraft had been successfully loaded on to the flat-back lorry that was to transport it by road to Blackpool.
The aircraft (together with the dismantled Sabre jet and other musem items) made its journey northbound during the early hours of Thursday 25th June 1970, finally arriving at Blackpool (Squires Gate) Airport during that morning. This was a full 24 hours prior to the historic arrival of Lancaster NX611 by air at Squires Gate on Friday 26th June 1970.
(4) Reflectaire Limited – In Liquidation (1972) :
The sale of VP441 was conducted by the official liquidator (Messrs. Bernard Phillips & Co. – London), separately from that of the majority of the assets of Reflectaire which eventually featured in the auction on Saturday 29th April 1972. This took place on the airfield (Squires Gate) and was conducted by Messrs. Henry Spencer & Sons of Retford, Nottinghamshire.
THIS IS WHERE MY PERSONAL RECORDS GET SOMEWHAT CONFUSED !
During February and March 1970 the Reflectaire Liquidator received various ‘offers’ for the purchase of VP441, prior to auction. Messrs. Bernard Phillips received at least two (serious) enquiries and a number of bids. One of these was perportedly identified as being from a Mr. Cameron Miller on behalf of the USA based ‘Confederate Air Force’ (as then known). The other enquiry, said to be from a Mr. Morris, lead apparently to a firm bid of £4,500 being made for VP441.
This is where the confusion sets in !! I was later advised by the Liquidator that the offer of £4,500 had been formally accepted, but a short while after this I was told that the ‘purchaser of VP441’ was indeed a Mr. T. O’Farrell (of London). To date I have been unable to get confirmation as to who actually purchased this Seafire and when she actually left Squires Gate and arrived at Booker.
IN LIGHT OF THIS CONFUSION CAN ANYONE ON THIS FORUM SHED ANY LIGHT AS TO WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO VP441 WHEN SHE WAS SOLD BY THE LIQUIDATOR OF ‘REFLECTAIRE LTD’.
On a slightly different note, ‘Mark 12’ has commented on an earlier posting that the cockpit canopy which used to be “fitted” to VP441 was purchased from the 1972 Blackpool auction by a Seafire 46 owner and that it has since been renovated and now fits the Mk.46 perfectly. Can anyone (Mark….?) give any more info as to the person who bought it and the identity of the aircraft it now adorns?
QUITE A LENGTHY POSTING THIS, BUT I HOPE I’VE CLEARED UP A FEW POINTS – I HOPE SOMEONE CAN HELP WITH MY ONGOING QUESTIONS. I’D BE REALLY GRATEFUL………………..
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by lauriebe
Hi Bruggen 130,Thanks for that additional photo from ‘441’s Blackpool days. I have several supplied by Richard Taylor from that time but had not seen this one. Sans canopy I see.
Richard, did it ever have the canopy fitted at Squires Gate?
BR
Laurie
Hi Laurie. Thanks for the latest shots of ‘441. Truly delighted with the restoration and straining at the leash for news of her first (post restoration) flight.
In response to your question, the (non-original) cockpit canopy was still with ‘441 when it was delivered by road to Squires Gate Airport, Blackpool (from RAF Hullavington, Wiltshire) in June 1970, but was damaged by the disgraceful manner by which it was offloaded (simply dumped unceremoneously in a heap of other museum items by whoever unloaded the transporter !!) with the fuselage and wings strewn on the grass.
From my personal photographic records at that time ‘441 was on outdoor display without the canopy during its time at Blackpool – protected from the elements by a tarpauline in inclement weather.
Hope this image is of interest (taken in the hangar at Hullavington 0n 7/5/1970).
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by lauriebe
Hi Richard,Just seen your post. I’ll work on those photos shortly and get some posted as you suggest. I’ll include a couple from Lavenham and Squires Gate. I think I have one for Hullavington as well.
For those who haven’t as yet seen the other thread, you can find it here:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19050
Regards,
Laurie
Thanks Laurie, I’ve seen your other thread and the photos you’ve posted there. I’m so glad they’re now available to a much wider ‘viewer’. The one I took at Hullavington should really bring back memories to fellow Forum member ’tilleydog’.
Kind Regards and continue to help the ‘threads’ stay alive.
Richard
(R. J. A.);)
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by lauriebe
[B]A contributor to another thread on which VP441 has featured, Richard Taylor, has suggested that I might like to post some photos of the aeroplane during its time with the Reflectaire Collection. Richard’s association with this aircraft started at that time.Richard, No sooner said than done! Enjoy.
Hi Laurence
Good of you to respond so swiftly. It really is about time I ‘bit the bullet’ and got a decent scanner, but until then I remain at a disadvantage.
Your reproductions of my hard copy prints are brilliant and I’m so glad I can now store these images on a more modern medium.
I really do look forward to the day when you are in a position whereby the full history of this aircraft can be detailed in print; similar to the successful “Story of a Lanc” which continues to prove popular with those who visit East Kirkby and NX611. As you know, many of my original photos and recollections are contained in that publication.
We’ll continue to liaise on and off ‘Forum’. Have a really good Christmas, even if the seasonal snow and ice is only a distant memory in your current location !!
Best Wishes
Richard
(R. J. A.)
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by lauriebe
I have just heard from Ezells this morning that the owner is going with the second of two schemes that were applied to VP441 during its service. That scheme is as shown in the photo below
Great news Laurence. Knew your personal influence would beare fruit !!! Got your recent e-mail updates (and photos) on the subject and can’t wait to see the finished article (IN THE AIR preferably !).
What an interest this aircraft (and NX611 / Reflectaire Collection etc.) has generated on this ‘Forum’ !!. It’s great that the historic records of these aircraft are beginning to reflect the real behind the scenes events and the experiences of those of us who personally experienced them at the time. Keep up the good work.
PS: Let’s hope that our good friend Ken Ellis can ensure that the records are put straight in ‘Flypast’ in connection with the true identity of the Seafire FR.47 that we are now all talking about. As you know it has twice been incorrectly shown as VP447 in the text of the articles (by Roy Bonser) that have been published on “ex Air Training Corps. airframes” over the past year.
Christmas Greetings 😀 VP447
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by drm075
Just thought I would post this pic of NX611. It is seen in the background of some Bristol University Air Squadron Chipmunks taken at Filton airfield at the 1964 Airshow. I believe Neil Williams flew it into the show. I did not take the photograph but was at the airshow aged eight.
Good photo, but just for the record NX611 (HA.P)(‘Guy Gibson’) made its appearance at Filton in 1967 (not 1964 – she was still ‘down under’ at that time – finally arriving in the UK at Biggin Hill on 13th May 1965).
R J A TaylorOriginally posted by Yak 11 Fan
Fascinating stuff about the Lavenham collection, having grown up close to Lavenham long after the aircraft had left however I have been trying over the years to find out more about what was there and what the plans were, I’d love to hear / see more about the collection.
Yes ‘Yak 11 Fan’, from your Profile you came into this world at about the time the ‘Reflectaire’ collection was languishing in the freezing weather conditions of the winter of 1969. Heavy snow on the airfield, ‘volunteers’ huddled up for warmth inside the old Lavenham Control Tower – yet spirits were never rock bottom despite all the setbacks !!
I have a personal collection of photos (mainly b&w) and 8mm cine film (colour) taken during those heady, yet totally memorable days as I’ve said before. I am very happy to share these moments with anyone who shares my passion but there are so many that I’m not sure how best to go about it.
I’ve just moved home and that is taking most of my efforts at present, but when I can find the time I will start to relay these memories on the Forum. My only real problem is that I do not possess a scanner and so have no way of posting the photographic records at this time.
I’ve been regularly communicating with Laurence (‘Lauriebe’) over the past few years in connection with the Seafire FR.47 VP441 and have supplied him with quite a few b&w photos of that aircraft taken at Lavenham, Hullavington and Squires Gate, Blackpool during period 1969 /1972. Maybe, if you’re reading this Laurence, you might be able to post some of those photos to the forum (to your new ‘thread’ on VP441 would probably be best )
Hope this will wet your appetite sufficiently to await my further postings on the Reflectaire collection (this also consisted of some interesting military & civilian vehicles, including a ‘Half-track’ which was often used to tow the Lanc. NX611, especially when it was taxied off the peri track and its port undercarriage sunk into the soft earth at Lavenham Airfield !! The ‘pilot’ on that memorable occasion was (the now late and lamented ) Leonard Cheshire VC, with his children on board also as I recall !!! Interesting Log Book entry !).
One final (well for now anyway) lasting memory of those days was the unhappy ‘recovery’ saga of the historic Percival Mew Gull G-AEXF, transported by road on the back of a flat-back lorry from Booker to Squires Gate in 1970, MINUS its outer wings !!! Anyone who knows of this aircraft’s history will know how disturbing it was to witness this sad ‘mutilation’ ( I have photos !!) and its ignominious arrival at Blackpool, where ‘she’ lay in the open with little protection from the elements for some while. It’s a long story but not a very happy one I’m afraid – I’m only too pleased that that piece of aviation history is now experiencing a very new and active life, despite having been subjected to the ‘ravages of the saw’ in its checkered past.
Enough for now !
R. J. A.:mad:
Sign In
