nJayMYou have posed some complex and tough issues here
Does anyone see this as the inevitable outcome of an overly generous social welfare system that has been in effect for the last 66 years?
Basically, you have generations growing up with an overblown sense of entitlement.
If you don’t have it, take it. After all the people with those things probably got it by “screwing the little guy”.
Thus, when given the chance (or in this case a pretext of making some sort of social statement) and under the cover of a mob, they’ll readily take from others who are actually productive members of society.
To make matters worse, there are still many (those whose lives were not turned upside down by the damage) in the media and government who continue to make excuses for them.
They’re also quick to call anyone who disagrees with them a racist.
Hi JBoyle
You have posed some complex and tough issues here.
Let me try (with the emphasis on the try) to understand and dialogue on this.
I would ask that you have a peep at some of the history of this great island’s history – http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bevan_aneurin.shtml
The NHS and the Social Welfare system to give it the complete picture is one that is as yet world unique.
It still works to a great extent for especially those in great need and are in the main grateful for it. It makes no distinction between colour, race or social status.
What doesn’t work is the magnified bureaucracy that supposedly essentially surrounds these services. They could be pruned radically and the service will probably get more efficient.
I have seen first hand the alternatives both while working as a professional in Europe who have near similar systems but different methods of taxing the average claimant.
What I experienced as a non working spouse (my wife was completing her PhD) in the USA in a Southern state was to realise how fortunate we were in UK and Europe.
For four days out of seven the Episcopalian Church which I belong to would provide Food Shelters to those who came along with special deliveries on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday to those unable to come to the shelter.
As a willing volunteer on 2 days a week, I recall clearly the method used to hand out a ‘brown bag’ of groceries and it was as simple as ever. A person who came across the threshold could have coffee and write their name and an address on a slip of paper and pick up a bag. No proof of ID required. If they were early they often had the choice of bread, superb cuts of meats and other goodies that the supermarkets had donated (nearly up to shelf date). Mothers with babies were given some essentials in baby foods and baby toiletries.
My director called me after two days and had a review chat. He explained clearly that although about 0.1% of those taking a bag made an effort to sell it usually unsuccessfully (known villains) all the rest were given the bag with ‘No Strings Attached’. The director went on to explain that for the 0.1% baddies they weren’t going to means test the majority.
That was unique too and successful and it is an aspect to be considered possibly here altering the handout to food and essentials rather than purely money.
Why was this charity effort needed serving on average over 4000 bags each month across the work done at 4 shelters?
Simply because there was no welfare system at all in the world’s biggest democracy. Why were some of these clients walking 1.5 hours each way in all weathers to get a brown bag ? They weren’t criminals but simply had lost jobs with loss of Medicare for the family and had no welfare system to fall back on to get back on the job hunt.
In that same area a nurse who I met at dinner explained that she worked for a French medical charity helping Mexicans who crossed the border illegally to be employed by affluent farmers at $1.50 an hour. They had no medical or welfare benfits. The state minimum wage in the area was $5.00. The border control made official gestures of occasionally firing over and across the line at some illegals but in reality the fact was that these poor illegals were a necessary source of labour for greedy farmers.
This brings me on to the fact that having worked in US Pharma R&D and for many US firms of worldwide repute, who are good at exploiting European brains and rewarding them well but the cost of products especially medical ones is getting beyond the reach of even the UK NHS.
As an accounting graduate I fully understand the need for R&D costs to be recovered, the risk of pharma being sued due to unforeseen drug interactions, the need to plough profit back into R&D for the future of the company but the product/service must become useful and affordable otherwise it plays to purely a niche market.
You talk of generations growing up with an overblown sense of entitlement – yes I have to agree but in a country where like much of the developed world which has not seen a war affect them directly it is an inevitable result of comfort bringing about complacency.
This is something teachers and parents can correct if they have the willingness to and that leads me on to say that the one reform I’d like to see in the UK is a return to tax advantages of being a married couple and adding the tax disadvantage for both partners to work. That is that all allowances are granted on the higher of the two incomes and the second income be taxed so heavily to make it disadvantageous.
Likely benefits – more time to build family units again – of course this could go awry and the stay at home partner may become a couch potatoe and an alchy.:)
Families engaged not in isolation, a car for every member in the drive, a private TV for each and each doing their own thing, but instead family meals, family TV, dialogue on topics relevant, help with school homework by parents and older siblings, family trips to supermarket, weekends away, annual holidays together – yes Utopia but it’s worth try to aim to get close at least. Parents involved not simply bashing teachers but engaged in PTA and sharing the problems and contributing to enhancements while understanding where their offspring may be heading in their lives.
Some of the older skills – culinary, seamstress, joinery, safe DIY, crafts have gone AWOL in school curricula due to a push for consumerism (replacement products cheaper manufactured in a carbon emission ignoring nation).
By your questioning and or suggesting taking away the guts of the UK welfare system of uniqueness it seems a little premature without offering alternatives that isn’t purely food shelters and abject poverty for the needy with no healthcare either.
Taking away the UK welfare system is surely unlikely to solve the problem of this thread unless you advocate greedy employers (already doing this in many cases) paying employees below the minimum wage, avoid statutory deductions and provide no welfare benefits. (Analogy Mexicans at $1.50 instead of $5.00 per hour in a Southern state in the USA).
nJayMYou have posed some complex and tough issues here
Does anyone see this as the inevitable outcome of an overly generous social welfare system that has been in effect for the last 66 years?
Basically, you have generations growing up with an overblown sense of entitlement.
If you don’t have it, take it. After all the people with those things probably got it by “screwing the little guy”.
Thus, when given the chance (or in this case a pretext of making some sort of social statement) and under the cover of a mob, they’ll readily take from others who are actually productive members of society.
To make matters worse, there are still many (those whose lives were not turned upside down by the damage) in the media and government who continue to make excuses for them.
They’re also quick to call anyone who disagrees with them a racist.
Hi JBoyle
You have posed some complex and tough issues here.
Let me try (with the emphasis on the try) to understand and dialogue on this.
I would ask that you have a peep at some of the history of this great island’s history – http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/bevan_aneurin.shtml
The NHS and the Social Welfare system to give it the complete picture is one that is as yet world unique.
It still works to a great extent for especially those in great need and are in the main grateful for it. It makes no distinction between colour, race or social status.
What doesn’t work is the magnified bureaucracy that supposedly essentially surrounds these services. They could be pruned radically and the service will probably get more efficient.
I have seen first hand the alternatives both while working as a professional in Europe who have near similar systems but different methods of taxing the average claimant.
What I experienced as a non working spouse (my wife was completing her PhD) in the USA in a Southern state was to realise how fortunate we were in UK and Europe.
For four days out of seven the Episcopalian Church which I belong to would provide Food Shelters to those who came along with special deliveries on the Friday, Saturday and Sunday to those unable to come to the shelter.
As a willing volunteer on 2 days a week, I recall clearly the method used to hand out a ‘brown bag’ of groceries and it was as simple as ever. A person who came across the threshold could have coffee and write their name and an address on a slip of paper and pick up a bag. No proof of ID required. If they were early they often had the choice of bread, superb cuts of meats and other goodies that the supermarkets had donated (nearly up to shelf date). Mothers with babies were given some essentials in baby foods and baby toiletries.
My director called me after two days and had a review chat. He explained clearly that although about 0.1% of those taking a bag made an effort to sell it usually unsuccessfully (known villains) all the rest were given the bag with ‘No Strings Attached’. The director went on to explain that for the 0.1% baddies they weren’t going to means test the majority.
That was unique too and successful and it is an aspect to be considered possibly here altering the handout to food and essentials rather than purely money.
Why was this charity effort needed serving on average over 4000 bags each month across the work done at 4 shelters?
Simply because there was no welfare system at all in the world’s biggest democracy. Why were some of these clients walking 1.5 hours each way in all weathers to get a brown bag ? They weren’t criminals but simply had lost jobs with loss of Medicare for the family and had no welfare system to fall back on to get back on the job hunt.
In that same area a nurse who I met at dinner explained that she worked for a French medical charity helping Mexicans who crossed the border illegally to be employed by affluent farmers at $1.50 an hour. They had no medical or welfare benfits. The state minimum wage in the area was $5.00. The border control made official gestures of occasionally firing over and across the line at some illegals but in reality the fact was that these poor illegals were a necessary source of labour for greedy farmers.
This brings me on to the fact that having worked in US Pharma R&D and for many US firms of worldwide repute, who are good at exploiting European brains and rewarding them well but the cost of products especially medical ones is getting beyond the reach of even the UK NHS.
As an accounting graduate I fully understand the need for R&D costs to be recovered, the risk of pharma being sued due to unforeseen drug interactions, the need to plough profit back into R&D for the future of the company but the product/service must become useful and affordable otherwise it plays to purely a niche market.
You talk of generations growing up with an overblown sense of entitlement – yes I have to agree but in a country where like much of the developed world which has not seen a war affect them directly it is an inevitable result of comfort bringing about complacency.
This is something teachers and parents can correct if they have the willingness to and that leads me on to say that the one reform I’d like to see in the UK is a return to tax advantages of being a married couple and adding the tax disadvantage for both partners to work. That is that all allowances are granted on the higher of the two incomes and the second income be taxed so heavily to make it disadvantageous.
Likely benefits – more time to build family units again – of course this could go awry and the stay at home partner may become a couch potatoe and an alchy.:)
Families engaged not in isolation, a car for every member in the drive, a private TV for each and each doing their own thing, but instead family meals, family TV, dialogue on topics relevant, help with school homework by parents and older siblings, family trips to supermarket, weekends away, annual holidays together – yes Utopia but it’s worth try to aim to get close at least. Parents involved not simply bashing teachers but engaged in PTA and sharing the problems and contributing to enhancements while understanding where their offspring may be heading in their lives.
Some of the older skills – culinary, seamstress, joinery, safe DIY, crafts have gone AWOL in school curricula due to a push for consumerism (replacement products cheaper manufactured in a carbon emission ignoring nation).
By your questioning and or suggesting taking away the guts of the UK welfare system of uniqueness it seems a little premature without offering alternatives that isn’t purely food shelters and abject poverty for the needy with no healthcare either.
Taking away the UK welfare system is surely unlikely to solve the problem of this thread unless you advocate greedy employers (already doing this in many cases) paying employees below the minimum wage, avoid statutory deductions and provide no welfare benefits. (Analogy Mexicans at $1.50 instead of $5.00 per hour in a Southern state in the USA).
nJayMYes the fightback must continue and this madness stop NOW but..
Yes the fight back must continue and ideally this madness stop NOW.
Society and the UK cannot afford to be seen as unable to cope with it’s society behaving like imbeciles.
On the other hand would such things as regional TV broadcast messages of appeal to parent/s, older children and the general public not have some effect?
I mean with friendly local faces (not necessarily religious) but TV presenters, game show presenters, comedians (sort of like the BBC annual Children In Need appeal) and celebrities all saying things like –
“ Mums and dads do you know where you kids are right now ?
Young people do you know where your brother/s and sister/s are right now?
Do you know what they are doing ?
Who are they with?”
Can some donations be made by businesses to offer them some carrots in competitions that require them to watch the TV programmes with prizes that may appeal – even some consumables, trips away with parents or family and vouchers for shopping.
These could be by tempting them with regular viewing to earn points by sending text messages to accumulate personal points to achieve accumulator prizes, cash in early for lesser prizes and progress on to the bigger ones.
A bit like the Green Shield stamps of old just more high tech.
This effort if made must be regional and local journalists and radio presenters can work through the next 24 hrs to make gestures of friendship and reach out to those who aren’t hard core bad rather than purely chastise and ostracise all of them.
I never will believe that all is lost with all these people and many can be saved from bullying by gang leaders and poor examples of leadership.
nJayMYes the fightback must continue and this madness stop NOW but..
Yes the fight back must continue and ideally this madness stop NOW.
Society and the UK cannot afford to be seen as unable to cope with it’s society behaving like imbeciles.
On the other hand would such things as regional TV broadcast messages of appeal to parent/s, older children and the general public not have some effect?
I mean with friendly local faces (not necessarily religious) but TV presenters, game show presenters, comedians (sort of like the BBC annual Children In Need appeal) and celebrities all saying things like –
“ Mums and dads do you know where you kids are right now ?
Young people do you know where your brother/s and sister/s are right now?
Do you know what they are doing ?
Who are they with?”
Can some donations be made by businesses to offer them some carrots in competitions that require them to watch the TV programmes with prizes that may appeal – even some consumables, trips away with parents or family and vouchers for shopping.
These could be by tempting them with regular viewing to earn points by sending text messages to accumulate personal points to achieve accumulator prizes, cash in early for lesser prizes and progress on to the bigger ones.
A bit like the Green Shield stamps of old just more high tech.
This effort if made must be regional and local journalists and radio presenters can work through the next 24 hrs to make gestures of friendship and reach out to those who aren’t hard core bad rather than purely chastise and ostracise all of them.
I never will believe that all is lost with all these people and many can be saved from bullying by gang leaders and poor examples of leadership.
nJayMThanks for posting that interview – vid
not disputing the illegitimacy of the happenings Kev…. just thought would put that up seeing it was an interview with someone directly involved with the rioting.
Hi kabirT
Thanks for posting that interview – vid.
Yes the guy made what I thought were some interesting points.
He got to the core of what was the problem – the psychy of the young who are rioting.
He made it seem like they all had the same psychy.
That’s where I have to disagree.
Being poor does not make you bad, react violently or feel anti social all the time. Poor communities sometimes set great examples of resourcefulness and work together to survive without always resorting to crime.
I must add that amongst some youth who feel the way the interviewee described there are a minority, possibly the one’s initiating the call to riot that are out for badness and crime’s sake. The majority of other’s get sucked along with group pressure and get carried in the exuberance of their actions. Lemmings.
Groups or gangs always have those that lead and those that follow. Often the motives of those that lead are those of ‘badness’ and being anti social. Those that follow are afraid of the repercussions of saying no to their gang leader.
IMO that interview should be broken down by people who care, people who can make representations to leaders and to at least locally inject some effort and resource into trying to engage with the kids that have a conscience and can be saved.
The interviewee also made a sweeping generalisation that was incorrect in that all these kids were doomed and with no future.
NO that’s what their gang leaders are making them believe.
Thanks again for posting that Vid.
The violence must stop now though by any means that the Police Chiefs feel happy to use.
nJayMThanks for posting that interview – vid
not disputing the illegitimacy of the happenings Kev…. just thought would put that up seeing it was an interview with someone directly involved with the rioting.
Hi kabirT
Thanks for posting that interview – vid.
Yes the guy made what I thought were some interesting points.
He got to the core of what was the problem – the psychy of the young who are rioting.
He made it seem like they all had the same psychy.
That’s where I have to disagree.
Being poor does not make you bad, react violently or feel anti social all the time. Poor communities sometimes set great examples of resourcefulness and work together to survive without always resorting to crime.
I must add that amongst some youth who feel the way the interviewee described there are a minority, possibly the one’s initiating the call to riot that are out for badness and crime’s sake. The majority of other’s get sucked along with group pressure and get carried in the exuberance of their actions. Lemmings.
Groups or gangs always have those that lead and those that follow. Often the motives of those that lead are those of ‘badness’ and being anti social. Those that follow are afraid of the repercussions of saying no to their gang leader.
IMO that interview should be broken down by people who care, people who can make representations to leaders and to at least locally inject some effort and resource into trying to engage with the kids that have a conscience and can be saved.
The interviewee also made a sweeping generalisation that was incorrect in that all these kids were doomed and with no future.
NO that’s what their gang leaders are making them believe.
Thanks again for posting that Vid.
The violence must stop now though by any means that the Police Chiefs feel happy to use.
nJayMTouche – good idea – indellible paint bala guns
I would have thought the police using paint ball guns would work well. The
chavs and chavettes would be more worried about getting their hoodies
stained.
Touche – good idea – indellible paint ball guns:)
nJayMTouche – good idea – indellible paint bala guns
I would have thought the police using paint ball guns would work well. The
chavs and chavettes would be more worried about getting their hoodies
stained.
Touche – good idea – indellible paint ball guns:)
nJayMNot so sure that will not be tantamount to civil war better to..
When arrested and prosecuted, bus all the shop keepers, owners, employees who have lost their jobs / living / cars etc round to their houses, give then pick axe handles, assorted hammers, matches etc, point out the house that the person owns and give them an hours payback……..
Not so sure that will not be tantamount to civil war, better to spray the ba.tards with indellible paint from water cannon, and back pack sprayers and that way they will be shamed as the entire community will know they were rioting and they can be brought to court, charged and handed out community service sentences to rebuild the areas they trashed.:)
nJayMNot so sure that will not be tantamount to civil war better to..
When arrested and prosecuted, bus all the shop keepers, owners, employees who have lost their jobs / living / cars etc round to their houses, give then pick axe handles, assorted hammers, matches etc, point out the house that the person owns and give them an hours payback……..
Not so sure that will not be tantamount to civil war, better to spray the ba.tards with indellible paint from water cannon, and back pack sprayers and that way they will be shamed as the entire community will know they were rioting and they can be brought to court, charged and handed out community service sentences to rebuild the areas they trashed.:)
nJayMCNN has a series of pics – it’s like watching WWII pics
CNN has a series of pics – it’s like watching WWII pics given a few exceptions
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/10/uk.riots/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
nJayMCNN has a series of pics – it’s like watching WWII pics
CNN has a series of pics – it’s like watching WWII pics given a few exceptions
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/10/uk.riots/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
nJayMHere’s a pic of what they used at Gleneagles used in Edinburgh to provide crowd control during events involving Princess Street and its shop fronts and for obstructing pedestrian access even around construction works, etc.
Relate this pic to previous but one post #284 by me.
nJayMHere’s a pic of what they used at Gleneagles used in Edinburgh to provide crowd control during events involving Princess Street and its shop fronts and for obstructing pedestrian access even around construction works, etc.
Relate this pic to previous but one post #284 by me.
nJayMGone to the buildings in the sky see URL
Gone to the buildings in the sky see URL
Was a historic and great place to spot from. Long before any terrorists got going.
Try this thread on Civil Aviation – some historic maps and pics of Heathrow to be found – http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=109247
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