So much of this is going nowhere with my opinion v your opinion and you not understanding my points or your using typical Russian style handwavium with no backup (“USSR could have done it if there policy was to get rid of Arabs”) or completely illogical arguments (e.g “And you don’t need aircraft carriers/amphibious to defeat a middleastern country. Its flat desert environment.”) to wierd theories on birthrates.

I didnot invent wild theories. You have provided zero evidence about India getting better training and more successfull incorporating new technologies compared to Russia/China.
Middleast has special geography that make it high vulnerable. water need large pipelines to cities.
http://www.globalwaterintel.com/archive/8/10/general/the-mother-of-all-pipelines.html
there is no natural barrier of mountains. aircraft and crusie missiles can travel as low to ground as possible. It is surrounded by multiple seas like Red Sea, Indian ocean, Mediteranean. Almost 360 degree attack pattern from Oceans and Air.

any armour formation in desert will be detected from hundreds of kms and soldiers and electronics need powerful airconditioning and sun protection.
forests are non existent. you cannot hide decoys and SAM systems without trees effectively.

http://s41.radikal.ru/i091/0903/0f/63b7f1fc131c.jpg

Ermm…both the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35C as well as the Rafale are a lot more advanced than the Mig-29.

MIG-29K has the speed /agility advantage with supersonic antiship/anti radiation missile make it the most capable in standoff missile carrier.
F-18 is overweight and lacks IRST. MIG-29K is upgradable with TVC.

And in case you’ve not noticed, articles are coming out about MiG losing money. The point of defence companies is to make money. Companies lose money usually when they’re not selling enough of their product.

defence company arent for making money. but to streamline production more efficiently at lowest cost to tax payer. what good is MIG making money if at the end it needs 500 aircraft production run at $100m each. and those losses are very tiny in context.

I was referring to their military as in quality of troops, training and doctrine etc.

The joys of trying to explain human systems to technology buffs. 😀

This is ur opinion not a fact. You have zero evidence to back it up. You don’t even know who has more fuel for training. Whose salaries are higher. And who introduce more systems per year. And who actually built advance simulators and trainers.

Of course it does as it’s using Russian spec systems. However the Russians went to the French for the hull because they couldn’t do it themselves.

It has more do to with on time delivery and availability of surplus labor in ship yards. Not with complexity of product. Russians can better concentrate on highter tech submarine building than sparing thousands of workers for Amphibious that is secondary importance at this point.

Amphibious ships are a multi-purpose vessel and one that favours modern operations (i.e. interventions in third world, humanitarian assistance, light carrier). They have facilities for both troops, aviation and land vehicles and have command centre capability.

This thing need a lot of times compared to cargo lifters. It is one way of transporting troops. Not the major way.

Much more versatile than an airborne brigade I think!

Airborne brigades is backed by airpower and they can secure the fastest an airfield for later heli borne attack force.

a. Internal revolts didn’t work in Iraq – they all failed and Kurds only managed success after US imposed a no-fly zone.

There is nothing in Irak that can stop MIG-31/Su-27SM from imposing no fly zone. Syria was always Russian ally. Your making Irak some big task which it is not.

b. Russia lacks capability to invade Iraq let alone Kuwait/Jordan/Saudi Arabia:

1. Lack of aircraft carriers
2. Lack of amphibious capability
3. Lack of global logistics reach

What is mean by global logisitics?. And you don’t need aircraft carriers/amphibious to defeat a middleastern country. Its flat desert environment. Round the clock cruise missile attacks from Subs/Bombers can sufficiently degrade convential fighting ability.

It couldn’t have done this even in the glory days of the USSR.

USSR could have done it if there policy was to get rid of Arabs. It does not need Arabian oil. And Arabs have nothing to offer beside Oil. USSR/Russia has the longest reach antiship and cruise missile inventory. There will no Arabian tanker that it cannot sink. And without Oil. There will be no water filtration plants and no airconditioning. Its one way of imposing quick sanction.

Russia also has a declining birth rate. It’s common in more developed countries. In Australia they forks out thousands of dollars per baby so people would breed.

That declining birth rate was function of economic decline in 1990s. the same happen to US in 21st century because super expensive oil and wars. As I said expensive long adventures have side effects. It has nothing to do with what happening in Germany/Japan.

Wow so Iraq in 1991 who are not as capable as Serbs shot down 39 Allied aircraft including an F/A-18 kill by a MiG-25 while “more competent” Serbs only shot down 2.

allies have learned from 1991 war to improve the systems greatly. Serbs don’t have anything modern than Iraq. Only thing Serbs could do it is too prolong the war to make it costly.
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You’re totally right about USSR neglecting human resources. And once it became Russia, it still neglected human resources (e.g. initial performance in Chechnya). As to whether they will ever emphasise human resources the way successful militaries ala Israel and the US do can only be proven by similar combat results.

Initial performance in 1990s is Soviet legacy. In 2008 things were greatly improved. The whole country of Georgia was smashed in less than 3 days. Now after that the most massive rearmament and training programe was started to remove short comings from that conflict. We have to see how much improvement has achieved. Salary levels are now higher than Israel considering high cost of living in Israel.

Firstly Turks are not Arabs. Not even close.

Turkey is an extremely poor example as it’s developing it’s own domestic military which includes some relatively high end work.

A better example would be Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or UAE.

Arabs love Western toys but like the Russians/Soviets don’t care much for human resources.

Turks are poor than Arabs but they will put up a fight even with less modern equipment. Arabs care about human resources that’s why you will never see Saudi/UAE/Kuwait fighting a stronger/modern country directly. They will always cry for external help.
Russia do care about human resources with visits.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lessons-of-the-five-day-war-315610/
Moscow on 18 August exchanged 15 Georgian prisoners of war for five of its personnel, including the Tu-22 pilots. These were transferred to hospitals in Moscow and visited at length by prime minister Vladimir Putin, accompanied by defence minister Anatoly Serdyukov and air force commander Gen Aleksandr Zelin. As many things in Russia are still decided by former-president Putin, his action could produce an outcome.

Russian weopons become more complex and expensive in 21st century. There use in third world will be diminished

And there lies the problem.

Russia is losing it’s markets:
– Eastern Europe – mainly switched to West as main weapons supplier. Even Serbia is doubtful as a sure customer.

Eastern EU cannot afford expensive and complex weopons period. How many have heavy lift gunships and transport chopper in number to make a difference. There is faster reaction time, longer range, multi warhead, glonass guided systems will be entering Ru army. That technological and training gap will increase with time that will make Eastern EU irrelevant.

http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121119/177581650.html
Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

– Middle East – mainly switched to West (Egypt, Iraq) or military in decline (Libya, Syria). Only Algeria is a solid customer here with Yemen occassionally buying Russian new builds as well.

Why would Russia care about Middleast switich. Remember Western weopons are expensive and need contractor support. The more Middleastern buys them the higher the oil price will go to pay for them. And not only that they will have to built housing for those contractors. That also need electicity generated by thermal power plants.

– South America – only growth spot thanks to Venezuela. However Cuba is no longer capable of making any acquisitions and Peru is also mainly focusing on upgardes with little procurement.

Venzuela does not have much surplus cash to buy the expensive stuff in quantities to make it worth while but neither is Brazil a profitable market as they require offstes.

– India – no longer a guaranteed customer as in past.

India is guaranteed in sense that India cannot afford Western weopons in quantities. It will alaways have to make compromise once it start paying for western weopons. See T-90 tank example.

– Asia – basically China and Vietnam. Malaysia is a free agent while the Indonesians don’t seem to happy with their Flankers and are buying second hand F-16s instead. Myanmar is primarily supplied by China.

Indonesia is under false impression of KFX that it is going to cheaper and more capable. It will turn around with time as South Korea has nothing to offer.
Myanmar went with MIG-29 rather than J-10/J-17.

And the Chinese-Russian defence trade is strained at times due to accusations of copying.

Alots of engines and chopper deals.

– Ex Soviet states – pretty much a monopoly for Russia but these aren’t high volume customers. Belorussia and Ukraine are too poor to buy anything.

There are rich states in CIS but they are not concentrating on buying military products in quantities at the moment.

So Russia’s defence markets are struggling. It’s why MiG is in such a bind – countries that previously brought MiG-15/-17/-19/-21/-23 have either switched to Western products or are no longer capable of operating or acquiriing new fighter jets.

How is MIG in bind. It is manufacturing the most capable carrier borne aircraft. Its is part of strike UCAV programe with Sukhoi.
You have to understand these defence markets wont matter to Russia. As Russia has critical shortage of industrial labor. The most it can do is to requip its own forces with domestic weopon system with some imports. Engine production is in surplus as Su-35/Su-34/IL-476 not in production is not at peak. So most of engine exports are to China/India.
Cargo lifters are need by Russian private firms and Ruaf so it will take long time to export it to outside.
Most of this third cannot afford Western systems in quantitiy. Let see how many JSF Turkey can afford and in what time period. Same will happen to Israel. Airforce with nearly 300 F-15/F-16 will have hard time getting 50 JSF. Same is with Japan. 200 F-15/70 F-2. And now only afford 40 JSF and that very slow induction. As things get complex they become more expensive. And most of customers require offsets and investments in return for buying those systems. See Poland F-16 or South Africa Gripen example.

Agree with China but less optimistic with Russia-US relations.

You don’t have to look at media circus but actual business ties that are improving as Russia has the money to buy US products and technical skills to contribute to them.

Sorry had to put $.02 here. I was shown recently that there are at least 6 videos on YouTube showing separate aircraft shoot downs by Georgians in SO.

Georgia was done in less than 3 days. It is less time than Israel can call its reservists for operational war.
there was risky flying at low altitude in mountains in unupgraded aircraft.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/12/russia.georgia1
If the Russian terms are demeaning, Saakashvili’s bargaining position is now extremely weak given the virtual disintegration of his armed forces. Abandoned tanks and armoured personnel carriers litter the road between Tbilisi and Gori – dumped following Russia’s swift advance deep into Georgia yesterday.
The country’s radar stations and air defences have been pulverised and many reservists have gone home. This morning a solitary Georgian tank was visible on the main road to the frontline, three miles outside the capital.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14document.html
The Georgians asked that a timeline be included in the language for these loosely defined Russian peacekeeping operations, but the Georgian official said Mr. Sarkozy’s response was that without an agreement, a Russian tank assault on the capital could ensue: “He was saying it’s a difficult situation. He said, ‘Their tanks are 40 kilometers from Tbilisi. This is where we are.’ ”

MIG-29K can lunch Antiship, Anti-radar and glonass guided bombs.
and they do have data links/HMDs etc. They are not few. all 16 delivered to India. fully operational with simulators.
and rest of two orders will be completed in less than two years. They are more than Naval Rafale at given point. but not all of them necessary on carriers. so how come so few Rafale on aircraft carrier is even counted as modern aircraft. it has the same obsolete canards fro 1980s. F-18 top speed and G values are below MIG-29K. it wont give the range advantage to a BVR weopons.

Su-33 are upgraded for air to air role. which they are designed. countless combat against third world dont count with practically no airforce.
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Now let’s not get ahead of ourselves. There is only a singular Chinese aircraft carrier and no battle group to speak of. Since the singular carrier they have is merely an improved Kuznetsov with a better trained crew, it’s obviously no threat to anybody with a real navy. 😀

Wait till the Chinese get along to plural numbers of carriers with accompanying battlegroups, then we can properly consider the merits of your statement.

how exactly is this improved Kuzentov with better trained crew. it hasnt went out on long voyage. so no one knows its reliability.
see the location of ETs. Aircraft with superior TWR from such small carrier can achieve it.

How very interesting. I think Turkey is trying to set it up so that if it ever comes to blows with Syria, NATO is automatically drawn in.

I suspect the Turks could handle the Syrians on their own if they really wanted to.

Its misconception. Turks neither have the money nor technical ability to handle syria. there is underinvestment.

http://www.blackseanews.net/en/read/48089

Of course the Saudi’s are a fantastic example of failed ToT when it comes to the Typhoon contract! Saudi’s wanted to set up a local line to put together CKD Typhoon’s. One small problem there just isn’t the local educated base of engineers to actually recruit for such a facility! The average Saudi just doesn’t seem to be interested in a career in engineering when they have money rolling in from the oil and foreigners who can maintain their facilities and equipment! All the major oil companies and defence contractors who work in Saudi have a massive expat workforce! To be honest I sometimes scratch my head how they even man their armed forces in the first place…I presume a significant proportion of their officer corps and pilots are made up of various princes and hanger ons. The day the oil runs out rather scares me!

Whilst this excerpt is from the Wiki I feel it is still a valid observation:

The accounting is not exactly transparent and the fact they feel the country is the property of the house of Saud rather then the people exposes any Saudi defence contracts to massive possibilities of fraud!

why would oil running out be problem for saudi. the speed they are buying houses, agricultural lands and shopping malls in EU. it is more than likely that most of population will shift to euorpe by time oil runs out and live off the rents. it is more problem for EU as they will not have external financing.

You have to consider Qatar is 50 years poorer than Saudi.

http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/lifestyle/2012/07/first-harrods-now-shard
The Shard, Harrods, Barclays, the Olympics Village – Qatar owns them all.