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Chox

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  • in reply to: TSR2 On The Beeb #1157515
    Chox
    Participant

    Oh well, I guess my inclination to make an assumption wasn’t entirely justified. No conspiracy theories, in fact nothing of any interest at all. Kinda like “The Archers” with wings!

    That’s forty-five minutes of my life I’ll never see again!

    Loved the comedy Stuka dive at the end though – summed it up nicely.:p

    in reply to: TSR2 On The Beeb #1157384
    Chox
    Participant

    I wouldn’t bother. Basically it was a series of extracts from Beamont’s autobiographical accounts, tarted-up with some dodgy sound effects and acting. The comedy voices for two Prime Ministers were just stupid – bit like Spitting Image but without the puppets or the humour.

    It didn’t include any “facts” as such, nor did it explain why the programme was cancelled. It was just a dramatic account of how the aircraft was assembled at Boscombe Down, flown and then cancelled – supposedly with no warning and for no plausible reason. That really was it – nothing more. I guess Radio 4 plays are not the place to delve into technicalities or politics but you have to wonder what the point of it was.

    I had a small (very small) hope that maybe the writer had got some direct accounts which would give some insight into the story but there was nothing. It was simply extracts from books (some of them verbatim) which were mixed-up until they made little sense, and with no conclusion or explanation. The way it was portrayed it sounded as if the whole project was just some whimsical “wish list” from the Air Ministry which was the victim of two Prime Ministers who were portrayed as idiots. Silly really and pointless. Sad thing is that it wasn’t even funny!

    in reply to: TSR2 On The Beeb #1156697
    Chox
    Participant

    It’s hard to know what to suggest as a “best read” on the TSR2. I’m currently writing a new book on the subject for Ian Allan so I’ve read pretty-much everything that is currently available and it’s a case of gathering material from a variety of sources, removing the waffle, emotion and biased opinions, and then trying to establish the facts as best I can!

    The afore-mentioned “Phoenix or Folly” is certainly a good read but it does contain a great deal of material which is irrelevant and misleading. As a general account of the aircraft’s creation it’s pretty good but the author has undoubtedly coloured his account to portray the saga as a dark political plot (yet again) without any good reason. Worth reading though, providing that you don’t take every word at face value.

    in reply to: TSR2 On The Beeb #1156061
    Chox
    Participant

    He might well be right – that’s the only book I haven’t managed to track-down so I couldn’t say whether it’s good, bad or indifferent!

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1144558
    Chox
    Participant

    As far as I can recall, there was an article in an aviation magazine which explained the saga, but I can’t remember which magazine or when. I can’t recall there being any further detail. It is very interesting if not a little absurd!

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1143424
    Chox
    Participant

    Yes indeed, thanks very much for finding the article and posting it for us all to read. It’s very interesting, if only to confirm that the story didn’t have much “meat” to it, and that it was merely a rather bizarre enquiry from some slightly crazed member of the “Conservative Aviation Committee” (whatever or whoever that is)!

    The article makes brilliant reading though, if only for the hilarity of the muddled (if not plain bonkers) statements made by the author. For example, he seems to have completely failed to realise that the aircraft was already effectively in production (Weybridge were busily churning-out the pre-production batch). He then fails to grasp that the Olympus derivative which was unique to TSR2 would have to be re-developed and tested. Next, he claims that TSR2’s role was (and should still be) “carrying the nuclear deterrent to targets East of Moscow” – really? Then he really drifts-off into fantasy by claiming that TSR2 would make a good interceptor, presumably in preference to the Tornado ADV which was only three years away. The funniest line (and perhaps the most ironic) is where he claims that the US has “nothing in its (TSR2) class” … One assumes that Dennis Healey would disagree?!

    Brilliant stuff. He seems to have made the assumption that a bunch of engineers could pop-over to Cosford with a tape measure, run back to Warton and assemble a fleet of TSR2’s over a couple of years. Even more remarkable is that there’s no obvious reason why anyone would want to do it, even if it had been remotely possible.

    I’ll certainly make sure that the tale is mentioned in my TSR2 book if only for sheer amusement!

    in reply to: British Airshows – Change & Originality #1142934
    Chox
    Participant

    As has been said, many of the shows seem to be doing pretty well so there can’t be much need to change them in any way. I think the main concern is for the modern military-oreintated events like RIAT, Waddington, Leuchars and Yeovilton (plus others like Biggin to some extent) which tend to attract a different sort of spectator in addition to the usual families looking for a decent day out.

    We all know the problems with costs, logistics, the minor problems like wars to fight and so on. But as I’ve said many times, there must be ways in which military might can still be shown to the public – the people who finance it all. The problem seems to be that the show organisers seem stuck in a mentality which goes back through the glorious years of BofB At Home Days and through the later years when military aircraft were readily available for public appearances. Even though the supply of aircraft has dried-up, they press-on regardless.

    Those days are clearly gone but you’d be hard pressed to get anyone from RIAT (for example) to admit it. Clearly, the big military shows ought to be completely re-thought if they are to continue at all. What is the alternative? Do we keep shelling-out upwards of thirty quid at RIAT to see what was once a two mile-long line of Hercules, Phantoms or Hunters become half a dozen F-16’s herded into a corner? Doesn’t make sense to me, but while the punters keep paying, I don’t imagine the show organisers will see any reason to make any changes. Problem is that the punters will stop paying – a substantial number already have.

    My belief is that the show concept needs to be turned on its head. Instead of creating a show for the public, I think the aim should be to enable the public to come to the show, in effect. By this, I mean that military flying, exercises, deployments and so on will inevitably take place, therefore it seems logical that some means of enabling the public to see these activities at close range would create an exciting event. There seems to be some sort of mythical belief that without a Tornado performing a full aerobatics routine, there would be nothing to see but it just isn’t true. Aircraft taking-off, landing, performing a fly by or whatever is just as interesting, indeed more interesting than being fobbed-off by wing walkers or gliders or anything else which generally only provide an opportunity to head for the beer tent or the loo!

    I can hear the conservative voices groaning about the problems with safety, logistics, weekend ops, planning and so on but I don’t think there is any plausible reason why routine (or semi-routine) military flying could not occasionally be planned to operate in and out of one base for a couple of days, and the public be invited to come and take a look (and maybe add all the usual show performers when and where possible). I think that would be the key to providing the basis of a show which entertained and informed, and didn’t actually cost an awful lot.

    in reply to: Scampton #1142949
    Chox
    Participant

    The future of a Lincolnshire air base is secure, the Government’s Defence Secretary has assured Lincolnshire Echo readers

    Well there you have it then. If you ever needed a pretty clear indication that a base will close, then this must be it!

    I still stick with my long-held view that (as some have said on this thread) Scampton will survive as long as the Reds do. I’m sure that’s the case but of course the Reds will only survive as long as their Hawks do. They are good for a few more years but once they reach retirement, the team will inevitably go (there’s nothing to replace the Hawks with) and it follows that a huge air base with absolutely no purpose (not even for the air space above it) will be redundant. I don’t think anyone would put much money on a CRC or anything else being supported at Scampton in isolation.

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1142962
    Chox
    Participant

    I personally don’t think that including details of this article ‘for sheer amusement’ in your book is warranted or justified

    I take your point but having read the article, I guess it might be a suitably light-hearted story to include. Patently, it was complete nonsense and the absurd comments made by the article’s author make it even sillier. When I asked about the story, I did think that maybe there was perhaps some vaguely serious issue behind it but on the basis of that article it seems pretty clear that the idea was both stupid and pointless, so the best one could do is have a smile about it! Heaven knows there’s an awful lot in the TSR2 story that makes one want to cry, never mind laugh!

    Page – I tend to agree with your comment! In my defence, it was not my suggestion to write another book on the subject but I do hope that I can use this opportunity to present a complete and comprehensive look at the whole story, without the usual myths and emotions. I’d like to simply trace the aircraft’s history and the endless manoeuvrings that surrounded it as honestly as I can, and leave it at that. Far too many books and features have been written by people who clearly have an agenda and they inevitably subscribe to the notion that the RAF was somehow denied a world-beating aircraft thanks to the actions of our politicians. Clearly, it wasn’t like that, and the truth of the matter is that the TSR2 was simply a potentially-great aircraft that was wholly unaffordable. If any blame for the aircraft’s cancellation can be attributed, then it has to be shared between politicians, the manufacturers and even the RAF who all made their own contributions towards the aircraft’s inevitable demise. It’s a sad story but not quite the scandal that many people try to imply.

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1142705
    Chox
    Participant

    I think perhaps there’s a plausible case for roasting the chestnut properly, rather than merely toasting it repeatedly on just one side 😉

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1142520
    Chox
    Participant

    this single event did indeed signal the effective end of the British aircraft industry

    The problem with the TSR2 story is that the above statement (used time and time again) is probably true in many respects, but it would be wrong to claim that the TSR2 programme was the cause. In reality, the TSR2 programme just happened to be the most expensive project around at just the time when the country was financially crippled and our British aircraft industry was hopelessly oversized. What happened was inevitable, regardless of TSR2.

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1141166
    Chox
    Participant

    It’s back to what I said earlier. The TSR2’s cancellation did (in some ways) signal the end of British aviation industry, but only because of a co-incidence of timing and policy. It wasn’t the TSR2’s fault, it was just that the project was the catalyst. Likewise, as you’ve pointed-out, it wasn’t as if the industry was killed-of as such, it was just finally brought back to reality. As is so often the case with Britain, we were punching above our weight. In many respects, I guess the main effect was on Weybridge which dropped out of the military aircraft business and ultimately disappeared.

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1140871
    Chox
    Participant

    I have to also add my thanks to the Forum team for allowing this thread to run and produce such interesting comments.

    I posted an identical enquiry on Pprune and they immediately locked the thread. Having enquired as to why, they claim that the subject isn’t worth discussing any more! So it seems that we are now only able to discuss aircraft which meet with the approval of the right people. I’m only glad that the “real” publishing world isn’t run in such a shameful fashion!

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1140743
    Chox
    Participant

    Aerodynamic performance-wise it was undoubtedly a success and on the basis if the limited test programme it looked as if it would easily meet (or surpass) all of the requirements which had been set. It was the aircraft’s systems which looked like being the problem, especially things like processing power which was already a headache even at the point of cancellation. It seemed inevitable that significant upgrades and improvements would be needed at some stage, and of course this would have opened-up another endless series of cost increases.

    Fundamentally, too much was asked of the aircraft for the time in history at which it was developed. It’s true that most authors (including Beamont) have billed the aircraft as being “beyond compare” but this is unrealistic. There wasn’t much to choose between TSR2 and the F-111 in actual fact, and I think the real gripe was just that we could have produced an all-British machine which was just as good if not better. I’m sure we could have too, but at what cost?

    Ultimately, the RAF got a TSR2 in the shape of Tornado which is in effect the same aircraft with a shorter range, but with AAR it’s much the same. Okay, it took another 12 years to enter service but by the time it did, the Tornado had the advantage of later systems and software technology and a much more practical production programme which wasn’t financially out of control.

    So although the TSR2 story was certainly an example of great potential being wasted, it’s slightly unfair that the RAF is always portrayed as being the victim, when in actual fact they were not. When the Buccaneer was delivered the RAF was really no worse-off for the loss of TSR2 and had the RAF received TSR2 then Tornado would never have been developed and the RAF would probably be flying American-manufactured F-15E’s by now. One of the many problems in the TSR2’s story was that by the time the aircraft was approaching the production stage, it started to look as if it wasn’t the most suitable aircraft any longer – as Roy Jenkins intimated.

    It’s a fascinating story though, but not quite the one which keeps getting churned-out again and again.

    in reply to: The TSR2 Resurrection Project? #1139908
    Chox
    Participant

    Ahh yes, the obsession with America. Quite crazy how various accounts would have us believe that first the US supposedly wanted to prevent the UK from maintaining a nuclear capability, but then wanted to sell us the F-111. I think the truth seems to be that far too much emphasis was placed on US influence that just wasn’t there. Ultimately, the US had better things to do.

    As for Pprune, I have a sneaking suspicion that their attitude has more to do with personality clashes than anything else (I’m guessing that someone in their group simply doesn’t like me), but it’s an astonishing attitude to adopt. Okay, the TSR2 inevitably attracts all manner of bizarre viewpoints and stories, but I just don’t get the idea that if you’ve heard it all before, you simply close-down discussion on the subject. Surely, you simply wouldn’t bother reading it? I’m saddened by the whole business – I thought that anyone would be free to talk about any aircraft without some smart-ass deciding what aircraft happens to meet with their approval first. Have you ever heard anything so childish?

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 935 total)