ChoxThere are so many ironies in the TSR2 saga. The Admiralty was undoubtedly dead-set against the TSR2 for obvious reasons, and historians have painted Mountbatten as the “bad guy” who did a great deal to kill-off the project. Maybe he did (although documentation shows that it was the US’s better offer which ultimately swayed the Australians, not Mountbatten) but in fairness it was the manufacturers who effectively destroyed the aircraft for themselves. Okay, they did this because of the way in which the Government bullied them into merging, but if all parties had taken a more realistic view and not treated TSR2 as a “super plane” which would be funded with a bottomless bucket of money, the whole saga would have ended very differently. The real irony is that despite their political motives, the Admiralty were right, and the RAF should have simply opted for the Buccaneer in the first place… which they did eventually of course even if by force rather than choice… and then reluctantly admitted that it was a brilliant aircraft!
ChoxYou have more details?! Brilliant!
It’s a fascinating paint scheme. Although I’m firmly a fan of more modern aircraft it was one which I coudn’t ignore. It’s amazing that when the Helldiver has been explored in countless magazine features over the years, the same US Navy paint schemes and markings keep appearing, but this rather bizarre version seems to have been ignored. Good thing you spotted it even if nobody else did!
ChoxAs an ex-Service Man, we need, I would suggest, to reduce the number of corteges passing down Wootton Basset High Street rather than complaining about the lack of hardware at some piffling commercially sponsored airshow junket
Well, it’s a tad pointless to ask why a thread about RIAT isn’t about Afghanistan! But on a wider point I’m with you on every word regarding that particular saga. I’m still completely amazed that the media sees fit to discuss Afghanistan as if it’s some sort of unfortunate inevitability. Where did all the reporters go that had a few brain cells and who could ask more appropriate questions – like what the hell we are doing there in the first place?
See my comments on the Sea Vixen/RIAT thread if you want to discuss the show – I’ve already said what I think there.
ChoxWhy don’t they admit it and say that they can’t afford to display aircraft because of the economic climate
They do – this is their stock excuse along with “operational commitments” of course.
It’s rubbish – the key to making a successful show is to combine operational/training operations with a public event. Costs nothing because it would be taking place in any case, and avoids the risk of “operational commitments” because it would be an operational activity.
It could be done but it ain’t gonna happen while RIAT sell all their tickets to Joe Public, who are quite happy to watch Stearmans, tedious sports plane aerobatic teams, BBMF and the Red Arrows. You can’t blame RIAT for sticking with that already patently works.
ChoxUS flying displays have generally been pretty rare events anyway. Even in the “good old days”.
IAT flying demos have included B-52, B-1B, F-111, A-10, F-15, F/A-18, S-3 Viking, Thunderbirds, A-7E, F-14, TR-1, F-16, C-130, KC-97, even the F-22 last year (technically!).
Oh well, they managed to get some B-52 flyby’s this year!
ChoxWell I’m happy to discuss the subject but let’s leave the sarcasm out okay? I don’t appreciate it and I doubt if anyone else does either.
It’s not about being bitter or jealous at all. Naturally, if I’d wanted to go then I would have. Point is, I just couldn’t be bothered, like an awful lot of other people. As I said, I’m sure this fact doesn’t bother RIAT in the least as they sold all the Saturday tickets and most of Sunday’s too. Human nature being what it is, I’m sure they think that if it ain’t broke, there’s no point mending it. But I’m sure you’d agree that commercially-successful or not, the show is a long, long way from the days of Greenham Common. IAT was a very different animal which was unashamedly aimed at enthusiasts and those with a serious interest in military aviation.
The current show, by comparison, is simply a commercial festival, primarily concerned with entertaining Joe Public and generating as much money as possible. That’s fine – no problem with that and good luck to them, but I’m constantly exasperated by the attitude of us folks – the enthusiasts, who seem unable or unwilling to be honest and direct about these matters, and accept that we’re being ignored at best or exploited at worst.
Clearly, RIAT have no intention of making the enthusiasts the main consideration any longer. You only have to look at the content of the flying programme to see that. This would be sad enough, but RIAT’s attitude seems to be that we’re simply an afterthought. We can come along and see the aircraft arrive and depart providing that we make additional trips or camp out, and pay for the privilege. Likewise we can have axtra access, grandstands and the like, if we’re prepared to pay a lot of cash for it (okay, I accept that they always had a grandstand but you get my drift). This just seems at odds with the original aims of the show. Another example is the way that the Russians have disappeared. Despite lots of gossip, the real reason why they never return seems to be because they want a lot of cash to make the trip. RIAT evidently don’t think they’re worth the money – simple as that. My point is that once upon a time, IAT would have done whatever it takes to get star items like that. But now they’d rather settle for aerobatic teams.
If you think the static display was “diverse” then I guess I’d agree. But as for whether it was either an interesting or worthwhile line-up, I’d beg to differ. There were some (a few) interesting exhibits I’d agree but plonked on the concrete between the tents, flags and cones, they may as well have stayed at home. As for the flying display, I think it fell a long way short of being “diverse” – quite the contrary in fact; it was a pretty uninspiring line-up, save for the Hornets and Gripens which almost reached over-kill proportions, but I accept that these were just a fluke which RIAT couldn’t (and shouldn’t) have avoided. The Vulcan is almost a separate issue. Without it, the show would have been a complete flop and it’s a pretty sad situation when RIAT’s star item is a civvy. This is where we came-in on this thread in fact – the irony of the Sea Vixen’s fleeting appearance at a show which was supposedly all about military air arms!
RIAT has lost it’s way. It could be done very differently but I guess the will isn’t there when Joe Public is happy to pay-up and watch wing walkers, Jordanian Falcons, BBMF and the Red Arrows. There are key areas in which the show could be much more attractive to enthusiasts. Most importantly, the arrivals/departures could be re-thought so that some could be incorporated into the weekend show. This would avoid the disappointment of seeing interesting aircraft (what few are left) simply stuck on the ground. Even a taxy up and down the runway would be far preferable to being plonked on the tarmac. RIAT would doubtless claim that this is logistically impossible but of course it is entirely possible if there’s any will to actually do it – which there isn’t. Look back to the year when they filled the runway with exhibits for example. What’s stopping them from doing that now, especially when they have a much bigger parking area on the south side?
Likewise, if the Russians (or others like them) want money then give it to them. Forget about wasting money on other civvy acts and get the Russian Knights over! But that would mean a shorter flying programme and this would upset Joe Public… so it ain’t gonna happen. And as for attracting a greater diversity of aircraft, then what happened to the days when IAT hosted things like the Tiger Meet? Bring it back, give them part of the south side flight line to operate from and they could be back in the air just like the days of Greenham Common. Failing that, create another “Meet” – not just some half-hearted symposium or “theme” (*yawn*) but something serious that is of interest to military air arms, which enables them to fly an exercise over the weekend. It could be done – RIAT wouldn’t doubtless say it could not though.
Basically, you have to see that RIAT have a commercial success on their hands so they have no interest in making any major efforts to cater for our interests. They proved that big time with the RAF flypast last year. The only way they ever will look seriously at us again is if we stop paying-up year after year and stop simply “looking on the bright side” and saying “they did their best” and so on. Nothing wrong with taking a philosophical view of such matters of course but ultimately it’s doing us no favours at all. Things will just get more and more boring as the years go by.
ChoxRight, the next questions!
Anybody know where I might find the smaller details to complete this paint scheme? Not quite sure where the chord-wise yellow band on the upper wing would be applied? Also, what is the lower code on the tail? CU2180 ? Also, would any target-tug gear have been attached to the underside anywhere? Is the finish silver or natural metal?
Yep, I know it’s a pretty obscure one, but if anyone has any pointers, they’d be greatly appreciated. It is a pretty impressive paint scheme you have to admit!
ChoxWell each to his own but as we all know, there’s an awful lot of people who just don’t bother going to RIAT any more. We’ve all heard the reasons why the show is so poor these days but so what? Ultimately, RIAT is a commercial event and they charge a hefty amount of cash for which we’re entitled to be suitably entertained. Enthusiasts get ripped-off even more with even more charges, but RIAT don’t give a stuff. As long as the tickets get sold and Joe Public turns-up, why would they? Can’t blame them for sticking with the same, tired old format while it continues to make money. Surely, it’s down to us to simply stop paying-up, and then they might get the message?
There’s lots which could be done to make RIAT a better show. But it ain’t gonna happen while RIAT keep-on making a profilt with the same old show. As I say, you can’t blame them for exloiting us so shamelessly – P&V charges, special grandstands and enclosures, hefty admission fees, over-priced programme, over-priced trade stand charges, etc. If we’re crazy enough to keep on paying, they’ll keep on charging and the show will just keep getting duller and duller.
Basically, you have to step-back and seriously ask yourself :- best part of £40 to get in, a long and expensive drive for many, and for what? A gaggle of dull static exhibits (save for a few interesting ones) shoved between tents, flags and traffic cones. A flying display comprising of the same old performers (mostly aerobatic teams) we’ve seen time and time again, three repetitive Hornet displays, two Gripen displays and a Vulcan which probably was the highlight of the show – rather absurd when it can be seen at other events across the country. Come on, you’ve got to be a really keen enthusiast to imagine that this is worth turning-up for. RIAT just isn’t hacking-it any more and I don’t think we do ourselves any favours by pretending that they are.
ChoxI’m even more glad I didn’t bother going actually, as some were saying that the Vixen was going to do a full display. I would have enjoyed seeing the Vulcan and Vixen but I would have been pretty disappointed to get just a simple flypast from the Vixen. Hornets are all very nice I’m sure but three? Gripens I’m not so sure; As a confirmed fan of all things modern (well post-war), I suppose I should be an admirer but really when you’ve seen one Gripen you’ve seen ’em all!
I guess they did their best to put a good show together but it’s just not cutting-it any more. Maybe it’s fine if you don’t live too far away but when it’s a three or four-hour drive there and back, and a pile of dosh to get in, you have to start asking whether there’s all that much worth seeing. I know what you mean though Bump about the hoardes of over-enthusiastic spotters. I really don’t know what they get so excited about any more. Even more amazing is how so many will pay even more cash to sit on a grandstand and take precisely the same photographs that a few hundred other people are taking. It all seems very pointless. Oh well, each to his own I guess, but I can’t help feeling that it’s all kinda reached it’s sell-by date now. Even the occasional Soviet-esque participant seems to have become a thing of the past, so we’re left with an uninspiring (and dwindling) gaggle of pretty run-of-the-mill aircraft. All very nice I’m sure but it’s not really what the IAT used to be all about, is it?
It’s a sad situation. On the one hand you have to conclude that anything is better than nothing these days but I just don’t have much support for the endless hype which is still attached to the event as if it’s some magnificent spectacle. It’s far from that now.
ChoxIs it?
Not quite sure where this is actually stated. I thought it was supposed to be an Air Tattoo?
Seems odd that if a Vulcan and the BBMF are deemed appropriate, the Vixen isn’t?
Oh well, it was a lousy line-up in any case which is why I stayed home. Best part of £40 to see nothing of any great interest isn’t my idea of fun. Great show though if you like Gripens and Hornets!
ChoxThanks Richard! I should have guessed it would have been your artwork!:D
Tim
Choxer… no:D
ChoxAs you say, it seems to have been a Hornet/Gripen-fest and little else. Makes you yearn for the happy days of Greenham Common, doesn’t it?!
ChoxI have no idea what else you want to know really Quid. The thread was about the Ebay photo. It’s XS458, photographed at Binbrook, carrying exercise markings. End of story really.
ChoxAs I said previously, if there’s still any confusion as to the tail code, you just need to look at the “DY” more clearly. The positioning/spacing gives it away – the “Y” was obviously made from an “X”.
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