Absolutely the dumbest thing I ever heard.

Mock, made-up, phoney situations are more important than what happens in the real world. Right.

As a USAF pilot, C-141/C-17/T-38, All I will say is Golden Dragon is the closest so far to what goes on….

Please contribute more, TTP! We don’t often get the opinion of former air force pilots here.

Instead of looking at these exercises, I have a better idea, How about the REAL WORLD!!! were USAF/NAVY crews missing targets all the time? were they shot down by enemy AAA or fighters, what were their kill ratios? and all you guys out there who love to compare the SU-30 with the F-15, the F-15 is ancient, first flew in 1972, designed in the late 60’s and soon to be replaced …also has never been BEATEN IN COMBAT, EVER!!!! Not one shot down and has been credited with over 80 kills! I’d hope the SU-30 can best a 35 year old design? and as far as hours go, I’d venture to guess we’ve been getting alot more since 9-11 in real combat ops….
Take Care,
TTP

Battle records are often disregarded in this forum for some reason. Of course, if straight records are taken into account in the modern jet age, the results are so outrageously lopsided that discussion and debate becomes no longer fun 😀

Therefore I think we have an unwritten rule here to disregard the obvious so debate can go on. When you have F-16s and F-15s with undefeated records in literally hundreds of engagements along with the fact that nearly all verified BVR kills in history are recorded by the US alone, then it is possible to debate anything against the USAF/USN.

So attempting to take exercises, which are by definition goodwill mission (anyone who thinks otherwise should study basic diplomacy), to prove some sort of “victory” over the USAF/USN is downright silly.

Aside from the recent Su-30K/F-15C “exercise,” US pilots also “lost” to every air force it trained with. So is the nation with the overwhelming aerial battle record really in serious trouble against most of the world’s air forces? Hardly the case.

On the ‘exercises’ bent… alot of PR, fighter pilot bravado, etc mixed in here. What were the scenarios? It would be VERY unusual for USAF/USN unit to show up and immediately begin flying ‘advanced’ DACT missions (4v4 with BVR for example).

Mark

Actually, there is very little bravado, since each pilot is an “ambassador” during these international affairs.

A well-known example is the 1992 Flanker/Eagle affair where a goodwill visit was turned into “Flanker beats Eagle every time” story and reported widely by Russian writers, especially Andre Fomin in his books.

The following is a rebuke and an illustration to what is actual “training” in these international exercises.
http://www.duffeyk.fsnet.co.uk/flanker_combat.html

“In addition to still flying for the Air Force Reserve I work as an F-15 sim instructor at Langley; which means I’m current on the latest F-15 progams and performance, surely there would be some record (classified or unclassified) of this apochryphal event and the lessons learned if the Eagle had been beaten so badly. “

DACT was not just frowned upon or discouraged; it was forbidden, mainly for two reasons. Nobody wanted the political heat/fallout that would result if one of the jets went out of control and crashed or, worse, if they had a mid-air in the hard maneuvering that DACT implies. Second, despite recent warm feelings toward the Russians nobody was going to allow anything remotely classified to be passed on, so the F-15’s were flown radar, TEWS, PACS panel, ICS off. When all your weapons systems are turned off it becomes pointless to fly DACT, unless you’re planning to recreate WWI, WWII, and Korea by fighting guns only.

What actually did occur (and probably the loose basis for this “dramatic story”) was that, in addition to single ship backseat rides the F-15’s and SU-27’s went out and flew tactical formation with each other (line abreast 1 to 2 miles apart with 2000 to 3000 feet vertical spacing). During 90 degree turns in this formation one aircraft turns first and passes 3000 to 4000 feet through the 6 ‘o clock of the second jet to go, at which point that second jet starts its turn in order to roll out line abreast but with both jets pointed 90 degrees off the formation’s original heading.

During one of these turns the Flanker, rather than continuing to the expected heading, stopped at the Eagles dead six for 3000 feet. After several seconds of wondering what the Hell the SU-27 pilot was doing the F-15 pilot spent 20 seconds trying to shake him and was unable, and then stopped, which proves?

There are simply too much niceties involved to see real exercises that push the envelop. Again, those are only present at Red Flag or the mass attack simulations at NAS Fallon which are exercises between the US services and their allies.

Here’s another thing:

I never EVER heard of a SINGLE exercise where they US claimed it had waxed the opposition. You’d think, even as bad as American pilots are made out to be in the all these reports, there would be at least one affair where the US guys totally dominated. But they never do.

It is rather well known that the US always lose to air forces it exercises with.

Check stories on exercises with Israel, Britain, Germany and all the EU countries, Japan, S Korea and Singapore. The US nearly always say they lose at least a few rounds.

Exercises are also goodwill affairs. The purpose is not to hammer home overwhelming American superiority. It is the same as naval exercises. With non-NATO members, the goodwill portion is far moe important.

Affairs like Red Flag are different and are hard-fought to develop ability and tactics.

Everything they buy and induct into their military works. It won’t be any different if they get a light carrier.

The Mediterranean is their escape hatch, their line of communications with the West. Better keep to it open, a carrier would.