GoldenDragonOne thing, I am surprised that Seahawk started this thread in the first place. Especially you (Seahawk) being a senior member, you should have known how ppl here would react to this sort of thread.
Seahawk made a valid point about Russian, Chinese and Western a/c and we are discussing his perception.
It’s not him but numbnuts who aren’t even remotely connected to this thread that brought up ethnic, political and nationalistic insults because of some stupid, unfathomable, misplaced rivalry issues.
GoldenDragonHe’s being sarcastic, GD 🙂
(not particularly scathing sarcasm, but sarcasm nonetheless)
It didn’t scathe at all, Vympel. Which was why I thought Groo was attempting to spread an outright lie that he could later point out and say “See how the Chinese lied about the J-45.”
It’s a proper propaganda technique 😀
GoldenDragonblimy, where did all the grumpy 10 year olds come from? :rolleyes:
Not a grumpy 10 year old but an jealously unreasonable adult Indian nationalist :rolleyes:
There is no reason whatsoever for India to be mentioned in this thread except for the fact that seeing “Chinese” in the title somehow brings out violent envy.
As for this:
BTW, have you guys seen the specs for the J-45? Kanwa says it will have a disruptor ray.
We’ve caught the envious nutcase in an obvious lie. I’ve checked Kanwa and there was nothing on the “J-45.”
Of course, this is common practice we’ve all seen before. Make up things and then accuse the “enemy” of saying it.
As for India’s press?
For months India papers were saying things like this:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031115/main1.htm
“India to base planes in Tajikistan”
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1919/19190600.htm
“A military base has been established in Tajikistan. Military and diplomatic sources in New Delhi said that the base, with a handful of defence “advisers” at Farkhor, close to the Afghan border, has been “quietly operational” since May and that it is the first such Indian military facility outside the country.”
Until the Tajikistan Foreign Minister had to say dispute the account.
http://www.southasiamonitor.org/diplomacy/2004/jan/30tajik.html
“Tajikistan Foreign Minister Talbak Nazarov denied media reports that India was allowed to set up a military base in Tajikistan.”
This is tabloid journalism that lies on international issues.
Its coverage of the world “smallest, most technically advanced delta” is no different.
So let’s not compare journalism in an aviation forum. There is no need for it.
There is no need for an Indian to insert his country into a discussion that has nothing whatsoever to do with India or Indians. It’s about time Indians not let stupidity brought on by unreasoning envy rule their actions.
Just pass over threads marked as Chinese-related and you won’t feel bad about yourself over some idiotic self-inflicted angst because of someone else’s progress :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonFrederik’s brother Prince Joaquim married into a rich Anglo-Chinese family in Hong Kong. Or was it the other way around?
Anyways, Princess Alexandra presided over a new Scandanivan Airlines route from Copenhagen to Shanghai just this year.
It looks like the Danish Royal House had gone native in the PacRim.
GoldenDragonPlacing this under speculations but the possible twin-engined J-10 model on CCTV is addressed here in this Chinese language post babelfished below.
The engine mentioned for the twin-engined is the Kunlun II. They attempted to keep the dimensions and weight of the plane as similar as possible to the single-seat versions. The intakes are altered from the belly to the cheeks similar to the F-22. The Navy is mentioned as requesting the changes.
Seriously divulges a secret: About China’s counter- hiding technology and CCTV’S twin engine J10 model
——————————————————————————–
2004-05-22 04:28:27 clicks:1140
1st, counter- hiding technology: Since long ago the air defense unit hits when the target in order to can let the radar effectively lock into the target, often adopts nobody target plane Canada hangs the radar reflector the method to expand nobody target plane radar reflecting surface, the simulation conventional airplane, lets the radar effectively lock into the target by this guarantee. But recently the magazine and on-line unceasingly appears our army to use hides nobody target plane picture. With hides nobody target plane simulation hiding airplane and the hiding cruise missile. This kind not only does not increase the radar reflecting surface to the small goal nobody target plane instead intentionally large scale to reduce nobody target plane radar reflecting surface the procedure, indisputable explained our army’s counter- hiding radar technology already quite was mature, if the radar lock into the target ability not good were unable on the basis to use the so small hiding nobody target plane (volume only to have airplane and so on F22, F117 several 1,/10) carries on hits the target training. It can be imagined, to the so small low altitude hiding goal all can the effective capture, then airplane and so on it was bigger than several dozens time of F22, F117 also is unable the stealth.
2nd, the twin engine newly annihilates: CCTV broadcast the twin engine newly annihilates the model is a wind in no way, looked resembles a wind but to examine carefully the shape to have comparatively wide difference with a wind, the vertical tail shape is specially different. This is 海军型 J10 changes. After the modification uses the engine for the Kunlun Mountains 2 涡eruptions motives, this engine merit is the minor diameter, the big thrust force, upper air high speed good, the oil consumption with AL¨D31F almost (made range which changed for aircraft carrier carrier vehicle J10 already to be enough). 2 alters to after Kunlun Mountains J10 the twin engine, behind the fuselage the diameter cannot increase very in a big way energy, continues the thin body, the modification difficulty is smaller. Because after alters to the twin engine, in order to does not affect lets in air, the air intake also altered to under two ribs to let in air and to refer to F22 and the wind air intake design way. The nose diameter has enlarged XXX millimeter, loads large diameter the phased-array radar. J10 changes in the fuselage and the dead weight change is not in the specially big situation, completely satisfied navy’s request, the take off and landing, the speed, has hung carries, 升限, 加速性, the mobility, and so on the performance large scale enhancement. This is a short cycle, fast return, high effectiveness model project, mainly is for strive for the time to form the operational capacity as soon as possible.
[ Extension pastes ]
Edition: Long Xin
GoldenDragonIt looks like they are re-assembling the plane before flight.
It’s a prototype so it is doubtful they leave outside at all.
After every flight they probably drag it into a hangar, take off the panels to get at the test instruments and tinker with the canopy and all the other parts of the plane.
GoldenDragonIt is interesting that only a few months ago the Red Brigade entrail scryers over here were screaming in rage whenever anybody mentioned J-10 and Lavi in the same sentence, yet now many of the same diviners are making the link J-10-Lavi-F16.
The Indian brigade here is so paranoid about China being discussed that they take even the words of detractors as “praise” for the Chinese.
Most of the Chinese aviation posters fought against the idea that the J-10 is a copy of the Lavi.
It just goes to prove that one audited statement on the LCA tabled in parliament is worth more than all the photoshop-induced, science fiction thus far written on the J-10.
Good for you and the LCA. Now go post more about democracy and free-press in the LCA thread. It has nothing to do with this one.
We already know the quality of many of the guesses resulting from US analysis of the USSR. Now people are doing the same for China.
Go talk to the Pentagon. And try asking them to put out an annual report on India as a “peer competitor” as a sop to your pride.
India’s importance shouldn’t be linked to what others think about China. And it isn’t except in a mind filled with unreasonable envy and paranoia.
Anybody who says Super-power and China in the same sentence, without smirking or laughing, is either a pimply teenager from Shanghai or a representative of the US arms industry trying to justify the next generation of super-weapons.
For a race of people with such an ancient culture, this constant paranoia of how others see China behooves me.
The truths are these:
1) China IS Third World,
2) the US DOES see it as a threat (stupidly, I might add because it is using a Third World nation as its foil)
3) China has NOTHING whatsoever to do with India and whatever sells or produces, especially in the aviation industry, faces NO Indian competition and seeks NO Indian market.
But I wish you well on democracy and your LCA.
I especially wish you and your nation success on the LCA. It was one of my favorite planes in the mid-90s (like all projects outside the bland circle dominated by the primaries) but it has since become a rallying cry, at least on the web, for those blinded by nationalistic jealousy and a stupid, misplaced sense of rivalry.
So go now and know that how others see the J-10, the FC-1 or China itself does nothing to either degrade or uplift India.
GoldenDragonA nice detailed pict of the 03 landing.
GoldenDragonCool picture, Dong Dong. The picture is from World Aviation, a mainland magazine. Here is a cut from the original jpeg posted.
GoldenDragonRussian and Chinese aircraft – obsession in this forum ??
It obviously reflects the real knowledge and first-hand experience of 90% of posters to this forum: ie they know nothing except what they’ve found via Google on the web and the closest they’ve come to real, live military hardware are CGI images of some Chinese student’s wet dream fantasy.
Have fun while I’m away, Kids…off to see some aeroplanes again 😀
If Google was all people used, then we’d have nothing but F-16, F-22, Eurofighters and JSF. Because the web is packed with those from end to the other. You have to do some indepth digging to get Chinese stuff.
Yeah, go see airplanes, Steve. I’ve probably seen as many Falcons, Eagles, Tomcats, Buckeyes, Talons, Hueys, Cobras, Starlifters, Galaxies, Hornets, Tornadoes and the usual cast of characters at airshows as you have.
And so have tens of millions of other folks.
As do 200,000 other people every single time the USAF or USN or RAF puts on an airshow. Yeah, you’re something real special :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonIf “India and China are peers in absolutely NOTHING (beyond population size.) ” was the case , then how and why did you interpret Groo’s “peer competitor.” to mean China :rolleyes:
I didn’t. I corrected Srbin who did.
And Srbin did so because Groo was making some idiot political speech in a Russian/Chinese aircraft thread.
What I said was:
“Srbin, he was talking about India’s “peer competitors.” That excludes China. The two are neither peers or even rivals.”
There is nothing that links China and India together, especially in the aviation world. The less Indians enter Chinese-related threads, the less flames we’ll have.
GoldenDragonHeh- he *is* the CEO. He’s paid to talk up his fighter.
Of course but he’s not going outright lie about the figures. These are information that’ll be pass along to the buyer. Even if we were generous to the Flanker and cut Saab’s figures in half, the Gripen would still be FIVE times more efficient operation wise.
Not really- a lot of the IDF components are either taken directly, or derived, from Western ones. Assuming 10 more years of development I still don’t see them acquiring the full spectrum capability that so far only the US, Russia, France and the UK have demonstrated (with China coming).
Correct, they were derived from Western ones and 10 more years of focused development along a basically Westernized road would see them in much the same level as the Western secondaries. As I said earlier the US, France and UK are primaries. Russia is key competitor to Western tech but runs a distance second in everything but airframe and aerodynamics.
The T-50 is just an advanced trainer/ light fighter. They’re doing what Yakovlev’s doing. The F-15K really has nothing to do with them- it’s being produced in the US (the F-15 St Louis line was saved from closure by the F-15Ks victory).
Nope, it has everything to do with them though the planes will be assembled in St. Loiuis. This is a classic offset program.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2002/q2/nr_020419m.html
Boeing, the leading purchaser of Korean aerospace products and the world’s largest aerospace company, will use the F-15K program to enhance partnerships with Korean companies. Boeing is committed to helping address Korea’s industrial and technology development priorities, including the stated desire for Korea to produce its own fighter by 2015.
I’ll tell you now, if there is anyone the Chinese feels competitive pressure from, it’s its Far Eastern neighbors 😀
It’s capabilities are being improved, but it is fully operational. The Japanese have been at scanning arrays longer? I don’t know much about Japan’s efforts in that regard, but the MiG-31 had the world’s first operational PESA in a fighter, over 20 years ago.
The AESA radar for the F-2 was planned from work in the 1970s and 80s (which actually resulted from naval work, if I remember correctly.) In fact, until the US politics got involved the 1980s, the Japanese have planned the F-2 around getting the first active electronically scanned array into the air. This was to be their coup. Scanned arrays are possible only with miniaturized eletronics and this was what the Japanese were good at.
The Mig-31’s scanned array appeared publicly in 1991. According to what I read.
If it employed any signficiant RCS reduction measures, I might agree, depending, but it really doesn’t- combined with it’s small pulse doppler compared to a big PESA, I don’t think it stands much of a chance.
Depending on the circumstances. Smaller plane, smaller radar, big plane, big radar. Reach of their bvrs are about the same. The AMRAAM has a proven record, the R-77 doesn’t.
Phalcon is supposedly very good.
And produced by a Westernized state, 1/3 the size of Sweden 🙂
Jack-of-all trades- when I think air superiority, I think a fighter with dominant capabiltiies, top of the food chain sort of stuff- that’s the realm of Eagle, Flanker & Raptor. *Perhaps* Typhoon, but I have misgivings about it.
Well, if Italy, S Korea or Sweden, had poured treasury enough to bankrupt the nation, like the USSR did, into its arms development, you could could see a first rate monster-sized “air superiority” fighter from any of those nations.
Again, they’d probably be bankrupted 😀
I’m not saying they could, all I’m saying is that Sweden’s limited size/resources limit the utility of its fighters. It has a good little niche market going, but Saab’s never going to expand signficantly out of that niche.
Resources that are well spent. Their standard of living is incredibly high too.
The achievement is noteworthy, but the actual fighter- not so much 🙂
The fighter project is pretty noteworthy in speed of development and capability.
The should let Shengyang play with the Su-27SK design then, if they aren’t already. Su-27SKM availability might make this redundant, unless they’re looking to do something more similar to Russia’s second-stage Su-27 upgrade (new radar etc).
Ah, but they can’t. They are locked into process of building a plane that was designed in a system that no longer exists. Chengdu are blazing far beyond them with techniques and doctrines that are for all intent and purposes westernized (again, this is a point repeated again and again in the FC-1 articles.)
He’s simply being realistic. The dominant super-power will always have the best aircraft/airforce, there just isn’t an alternative. They have the most comprehensive set of abilities in land, air, and sea war by default.
He most certainly is being realistic. But not all pilots are so. Try reading stuff from pilots concerning the MKI 😀
It’s always the best plane in the world and beats the F-15 hands down 😀
GoldenDragonExcept for a few numbnuts, which includes the one posting old and obviously PSed crap yesterday, most Chinese-aviation posters here put things into a few threads. The ones I created are among the longest running ones around.
Heck, if the FC-1 threads weren’t locked so frequently because of flamers (like the one currently complaining about the plethora of FC-1 threads but who repeatedly posts in them) we would have had a nice, single thread on the FC-1 from pictures of 01’s assembly to the flight of prototype 03.
GoldenDragonUp to 10 times? Figures?
http://www.defesanet.com.br/fx/dinheiro21jan04eng/
“Dinheiro: Is there an economic advantage of Gripen over its competitors?
McNamee: Cost of hour/flight of Gripen is extremely low. I could mention, as a reference, that Gripen costs about US$ 2,300, while this cost goes up to about US $ 8,000 for the F-16 and US $ 25,000 to Sukhoi. This means, to fly a Gripen is 10 times less expensive than a Sukhoi.”
I don’t see Taiwan/ S Korea handling the type of military technology the Russians do- there is too great a tendency, IMO, to translate just one field of technical advantage and put that in all fields.
They don’t because they spend most of their time developing and implementing commercial projects that make them money. If Taiwan had continued with their aviation projects after the FCK-1, they’d have a pretty advance industry today. The Sky Sword AAMs are even indicative of their capability.
Korea? You watch what happens with the T/A-50 and the F-15K. This is will be like the Korean car industry. The Koreans are going appear out of nowhere and impact the aviation scene.
These are fair enough assumptions, depending on what degree you’re talking about- except for the Ericsson MM radar bit- firstly, the Su-35 uses N011M- as a damn large PESA, it will be far more capable in finding, tracking, and keeping a lock than any mere pulse doppler. The Ericson simply doesn’t have a prayer of competing on an equal level in the ability to find and kill targets.
Heck, the thing’s still in development. The Japanese had a hard time with their scanning array and they’ve been at it longer.
If the Su-35 and the Gripen are both delivered tomorrow, my money’s on the Gripen being able to acquire and lock on the giant Flanker more reliably 🙂
There is a reason China went to Israel for its AWACs.
That said, the specs to the NO11M-Bars looks great. Target acquisition of up to 200km is nothing to sneeze at. Probably greater than the Ericcson by a third. If it performs 🙂
It’s small status etc. reflects it’s fighter plane design- the Gripen is quite the unremarkable aircraft, technical and capability wise. Realistically, to expect Sweden to be capable of designing a real air superiority fighter just because it has some Western attributes just isn’t reasonable.
The Gripen is hardly not a “real air superiority fighter” 😀
Well then, let’s see a non-western country the size of Sweden design, build and operate hundreds of fighters like the Gripen.
Meh- same class as Gripen. An interesting plane, but not deserving of any big wows.
Anytime a small nation of 25 million builds a plane and hangs a homegrown ARH BVR on it, it’s like “WOW!” 😀
The fact is if you look at the Chinese press (especially the FC-1 ones), China’s main concern is catching up to Western standards and Western ways of doing things. And a big reason is because China was being left behind by the Westernized Asian states on its periphery.
Shenyang is considered at a major disadvantage to Chengdu because it is locked into the J-11 program. I’ve posted articles on this before.
The lead test pilot for the FC-1 and J-10 (and trainer for PAF J-7 pilots) when asked about the best air forces and aircraft in the world, simply answered Israel and the US respectively. This is a veteran of a communist air force full of Flankers. You’d think his natural bias would be to aircraft his country owns.
GoldenDragonThe PL-5 is real ordnance (probably without fuse) because the Chinese press made a big deal about the FC-1 carrying two AA missiles on its first flight in September.
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