China is indeed third world but there is nothing in which it competes with India except for population and the amount of people in poverty.

Economicially, politically and strategically, China’s attention and competition is in the Far East not on the subcontinent.

The only reason why India popped up in this conversation of obsession and “Russian and Chinese” aircraft is because someone insisted on interjecting India into the thread by virtue of being a “peer competitor.”

India and China are peers in absolutely NOTHING (beyond population size.) They don’t trade much, their geopolitical interests are in entirely different parts of the world. And their products almost never compete and they most certainly DO NOT in the aviation world.

The FC-1 is not being sold in competition to anything from India. Neither was the J-7 before it. When a K-8 or Y-7 or Y-8 or Y-12 is sold today, it doesn’t compete against anything Indian. When the J-10 is thrown up for sale very shortly, it won’t either.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, it is, first and foremost, a bulwark and ally against the Soviet Union/Russia, not India. But beyond being an ally during the Cold War and beyond, it is considered a friend that transcends geo-politics.

Fair enough- however, I would point out that the only criticism of Western aircraft that I’ve seen so far on AFM alone is the JSF (from ELP, for budgetary/need reasons), the Hornet (because it’s an inferior replacement to a previous American aircraft) and the F-16 (from Arthur, because it’s boring).

Criticism of the JSF, in my view, actually comes more from hopes that it’ll fail and so save other Western aircraft. The JSF is a juggernaut and a project killer. People hope Norway would buy the Gripen because, like Arthur, most of us want variety.

The F-18 is criticized mainly by Americans themselves still in love with the F-14 (and A-6.) Posters from the countries that use them in large numbers, Finland, Canada, Australia and Spain, have posted nary a complaint here.

The F-16. Well, it has crashed all over Arthur’s beloved BeNeLux lowlands as well as being boring 😀

In terms of the Gripen, when they say “match for the Su-30” they’re talking about the terms of the deal and the attractiveness to the government, rather than any technical superiority (IIRC, the Su-35 is favored by the AF), which it clearly doesn’t have a lot of. Air combat between an Su-35 and a Gripen is a foregone conclusion in favor of the Su-35, IMO.

Airframe-wise, no. Avionics, man-machine interface, maintenance, cost of operations, I’d bet on the Gripen (as did former Soviet Bloc countries Hungary and the Czech Republic.)

Nothing is foregone if the Gripen carries an AMRAAM or Meteor. A Flanker with canards is about as a big a radar target you can possibly get for fighter.

Can you think of examples?

The same examples that Seahawk is probably thinking of. The Gorshkov and F-15 vs Su-30 threads and maybe some of our earlier debates 😉

I certainly don’t see anti-Western a/c criticism in any of the Chinese-related threads that I usually frequent.

How is this very much different from the direction of Russian aviation companies (except for advice from the West- they don’t need it)?

The Russian aviation companies are not the ones in question. They most definitely follow western ideas on doing things these days.

But Seahawk alluded to people who’ve are criticizng Western aircraft, not the companies themselves.

I don’t see many posters interested in Chinese aircraft attempting to criticize American and/or Western aircraft.

They’re set by the United States. The “West” is too broad a term IMO.

The West in my view = US, France and the UK as the primaries and Sweden, Germany and Italy as secondaries.

Japan, Taiwan and S Korea are basically western countries, aviation-wise but we’ll leave them out of the Western circle in this discussion.

Technology-wise, the equipment of the West is ahead of their closest competitor, Russia.

Any of the Western nations, including the smaller ones, if they chose to to spend can produce equipment far better (also far more expensive) than their Russian counterpart.

The British Harrier is better than the Freehand. The Gripen is better than the Mig-29 and is considered a match for the Su-30 in the Brazil’s competition. The US stuff is, of course, out of reach.

I would also add that most criticisms of Western a/c don’t come from Russians or even Russian a/c enthusiasts like you, Vympel, but mainly from one group whose perceived main rival is currently operating a Western-style air force.

Completely agreed, and thats the nature of how democracy works, although it’s good but can be bad sometimes. See we cannot know anything about any Chinese Military programs because it’s communism, we do not know about any of the mistakes they make or anything good they do, because they keep it secret.

Srbin, he was talking about India’s “peer competitors.” That excludes China. The two are neither peers or even rivals.

Whatever the criticism on their projects, it’s done by the Indian themselves. It’s definitely not coming from the Chinese. In the Chinese boards, where there are no Indians, no one ever brings up the LCA, never mind criticism of it.

The J-7, Y-12, Y-8, K-8 and now the FC-1 are pretty open. They have to be. These planes were, are and will be sold in the market. No one is dumb enough to buy a blank statement.

Unless they’ve actually sold something, attempting to elevate products because it’s a “democratic” product or a “free press” product is idiotic.

Buyers kick tires, sit in the cockpits and buy something that’s real. They don’t buy mirages made out of press clippings.

These are crops from the original photos (they were very large) in their original dimensions.

There is a J-7 in front of the J-10 in the second picture. It gives an idea of the size.

I have noticed in the last months that this forum is imho biased in favor of Russian and Chinese planes.

Western planes on the other hand a regularly criticised and seen as failures or outdated. Funny enough we know much more about all western fighters. Testing reports, reports from accounting offices, senat hearings, whatever are available to confirm if the aircraft is fullfilling the promised specifications or not.

We have no comparable sources for eastern planes. Yet all specifications given by the manufactures (Russia) or rumored (China) are widely believed in here.

Why is that the case ??

Actually, you won’t find many Chinese posters criticizing Western planes. The ones who support Russian planes tend to criticize American ones in response to questions raised about Russian quality.

Not so with the Chinese aviation supporters. I, and others like Crobato, tend to support our case by saying that China is reaching for Western standards (Western machining tools, Western project management, increasing capitalistic company doctrines, advice from Western, and so on.)

I like Chinese planes and that’s the interest where I spend most of my time following. But I have said time and again that aviation standards are set by the West. It would be stupid to think otherwise.