GoldenDragonFrom Don Juan at CDF, what a gorgeous color scheme!
GoldenDragonThe descendent of the Y-7, the MA60, are beginning to sell in good numbers. Latest to Laos (which had operated the Y-7 before) and Congo. Indonesia had signed for a batch earlier this year.
http://china.org.cn/english/2006/Jul/176203.htm
Made-in-China Passenger Aircrafts Exported Overseas
China delivered Friday two domestically manufactured Xinzhou-60 passenger planes to Laos and the Republic of Congo, the first sale of this aircraft to the two countries.
The delivery ceremony was held in Yanliang Aircraft Town, about 70 kilometers north of Xi’an, home to the Xi’an Aircraft Company.
Andre Okombi Salissa, Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation of the Republic of Congo, Somphone Douangdara, president of Laos Airlines, and Meng Xiangkai, vice-president of Xi’an Aircraft, signed the delivery documents in the town.
Developed and manufactured by Xi’an Aircraft, a subsidiary of China Aviation Industry Corporation, the Xinzhou-60 is a turboprop aircraft that can carry 50 to 60 passengers. It sells for about 100 million yuan (US$12.5 million).
The plane meets international safety, comfort, and ease of maintenance standards, and costs 10 to 20 percent less than similar types of aircraft, according to experts.
Air Zimbabwe signed a purchase deal with Xi’an Aircraft in November 2004, becoming the first foreign customer for the plane.
Zimbabwe has so far bought three Xinzhou-60 aircraft.
By the end of the year, a total of 11 planes will have been delivered to six countries in Southeast Asia and Africa, according to the company.
The company has so far signed purchase deals involving 32 Xinzhou-60 planes with eight countries worldwide, said the company.
(Xinhua News Agency July 29, 2006)
GoldenDragonThe July issue of AFM has a picture of the Y-8 with the pancake radome.
GoldenDragonhttp://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?150966
Chinese Defence delegation arrives soon for test, trial of AWACS
Saturday July 29, 2006 (0153 PST)
ISLAMABAD: A high powered Chinese Defence delegation is due to arrive here shortly for a test and trial of their Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).
The team is arriving just moths after Pakistan announced it was going ahead with the purchase of the Swedish Early Warning System (ERIEYE).
The Chinese system is said to be cost-effective and state of the art which is designed for both Airborne Early Warning (AEW) and Airborne Command and Control (AC&C) missions.
Pakistan has been in need of such a system for continuous surveillance of border and sea lanes of communication.
The system from China represents the current best choice of AWACS with powerful mission capability and availability in a cost effective package.
GoldenDragonToday I saw a possible Chinese Non-beam AWACS parked at Chaklala Airbase.
Thanks! Keep us posted!
GoldenDragonsecrecy of “top end” fighter is not normal? China still hasn’t unveiled the figures of J-8F. Why should it give edge to anyone by start telling people every parameter of its weapons. Please, go read “art of the war”.
The JH-7 was not revealed for years after it entered service. But neither were Su-15, the MiG-29, the F117, the U-2 and the list could go on forever.
Whoever said that air forces are required to like others know their equipment pretty much doesn’t understand the reason behind having a military.
su-35, su-34 and su-33 are available to China. What else are Russian’s best and latest item?
The fighter variants expected to use for the modernization of the Russian air force itself are funded by the PLAAF not the IAF.
No one expects another country to sell their “best and latest” but if the IAF is banking on a “special” emotional relationship with the Russians then I’ve nothing to say. I can’t mindread feeling of love in Russians for Indians so I have no idea whether that is right or wrong.
If the Chinese-funded variants are good enough for Russian modernization then Russian love for Indians must be such that they are willing to give better technology to the IAF than the VVS :rolleyes:
GoldenDragonThe problem with Japan is not just its past behavior and refusal to own up to it but also its current behavior.
Japan is seen as a nation working to weaken Asian unity. It is not only subservient to an outside power but also sees itself as non-Asian.
For example, a Chinese-American Vincent Chin was murdered in Detroit by white-Americans calling him a “Jap” and blaming him, a fellow American, for “stealing” American jobs through Honda and Toyota.
Instead of condemning this act of racism affecting all East Asians, the Japanese were perturbed that a Chinese person was mistaken for a Japanese.
A similar situation occurred in South Africa when instead of embargoing and condemning the horrendous system of apartheid, the Japanese negotiated terms with the South African government where Japanese are to be treated as “honorary” whites.
That said, Japan is a first world nation though its views on skin color and responsibility is more like a country from 1800s than a modern state.
GoldenDragonNote to all posters: Sometimes you have to retort to trolls in the language they best understand. It was not my intention to drag the PLAAF/ China into this sh!tfest, but apparently thats the only language some “gentlemen” understand.
It was you and your nationalist friends who came to a Pakistani thread claiming that the PAF is somehow inadequate against its main potential foe.
Again, the PAF is not facing a first world air force as its main opposition. What it has and will get is more than good enough.
Really? Wow, we never knew. So great to have you with us Golden Dragon. Is the PAF training the PLAAF how to fly its planes? Surely they’ll do a better job than the PLAAF does, dont you think?
:rolleyes: No more than the Russians, British and Americans have trained the Indian air force just by interacting with it.
That said, no less than the lead test pilot of the FC-1 (and reportedly a test pilot in the J-10 project) had said that the PAF has introduced China to American standards and ways of doing things. You can read Lei Qiang’s comments on the original China’s pictures and discussion thread http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25717.
Lei used to train PAF pilots for F-7s.
Countries like Pakistan, Thailand, Israel and even Iran had over the years introduced China to the American methods and standards and has pulled at least part of the PLAAF and China’s aviation industry away from the commie way of doing things.
Ah, lovely, Chuck Yeagers rants are passe’- every worthwhile commentator on the this topic has weighed in and pointed out the obvious errata in his claims.
Why quote some American professionals and not others?
Chuck Yeager saw and documented a war. He was not commenting after some exercises.
Why? Because none speak like that about his beloved PLAAF- darn shame really, so he has to latch onto the coattails of the RSAF, ROCAF, Thai AF etc to wail…
:rolleyes: Pointing out that Taiwanese, Thais and Singaporeans had gotten glowing reports from the US for years is riding their coattails?
Further more, I’m Chinese and the vast majority of the pilots in the RoC and RSAF are Chinese as well. (Much of the Thai military has ethnic Chinese as well.) You ride the coattails of others not your own kind. At least use the term correctly.
And unfortunately, since nor are we as juvenile as you are to engage in this world, that world classification and we do look upon the IAF as capable of fulfilling its mandate, thats that…
I make a simple observation, what the PAF has and what it is getting is far more than adequate considering its opposition. It is not facing a first world opponent.
If you feel the need to defend the IAF after such an obvious statement then it is entirely due to your heightened sense of pride that the IAF should somehow be on the same plane as the USAF because of a few dozen Flankers.
The PLAAF has hundreds of Flankers and is repeated stated by endless reports from the Pentagon as the one “peer competitor” that US faces in the future. And yet the IAF with a few dozen Flankers is considered an overwhelming challenge to Pakistan?
But never mind, do fly your plastic planes, say vroom vroom and fantasise about whichever AF is what..
Yes, we will. There are Chinese planes sold all over the world and plastic or not they serve in the air forces of dozens of nations.
Lets return the compliment…what did China ever do to Japan..after the way Japan walked all over China & the like..
Japan is a first world nation and possible most powerful military in modern Asian history. But it could not even get a weak KMT government to surrender to it.
The KMT are on the island of Taiwan today. A world of difference from the PLA/PLAAF.
Wait, I know, it showed its historic strength and military relevance recently…ask its own citizens to riot and stage massive protests!
Actually, if you studied military history instead using the basic internet argument about “massacring students.” The PLA made its name fighting and taking land from the US Army (all of North Korea.) Something that neither the Japanese nor the Germans ever did. The US Army has NEVER ended a conflict losing territory to an enemy EXCEPT to the PLA.
I assume you were chanting “PLAAF PLAAF PLAAAF” dancing around with your eyes screwed shut and fingers in your ears…but never mind.. we’re all shocked and awed by Chinas military strength…pfffft….
:rolleyes: Let’s see, I and several other Chinese poster in this thread have said the PLAAF would have no chance against the USAF. Yet, you feel it is important to deliberately lie about our opinion of the PLAAF?
You’re arguing against the spectre of American and Western perception of Chinese power not what the Chinese think.
Think about it, you are having a hard time accepting that the PAF is not facing a first rate threat against an IAF that has just a few dozen Flankers. The PLAAF has hundreds of Flankers and we don’t see it surviving against US intervention.
The only ones with their fingers in their ears and chanting their supposedly “well-trained” air force like a mantra are you and your fellow nationalists.
GoldenDragonI would have thought a weapon was exactly that, a trophy wife.
deterent is better then actual combat.
A trophy wife doesn’t deters. The big stick deters.
2000 F-16 is a big stick on one’s shoulder. 20 MKIs is more like a trophy blonde from Russia. She won’t deter much but is nice to have on your arms.
As for the J-10, what on earth could possibly deter the US? You keep it hidden as an ace in hand.
And seriously when have the IAF shown of the 30Mkis? i know the 30MK – 1 have been in aircombat with other airforces but is that showing of?
or are you getting confused between the fans of the IAF and Su-30Mkis who tout it and the silent IAF which hasnt taken it to any airshows in europe or elsewhere?
Matt, there are professionals in the IAF who would rather have their systems hidden until use. Americans still don’t like F-16s in Pakistan because of China. This even though America is in a dominant position.
So I highly doubt that professional IAF member would like their systems shown haphazardly everywhere. The showing off comes probably less from the IAF than the Indian press.
GoldenDragonIf you are seen with a woman that is hinted to be your wife after the alleged marriage is done, isn’t it ridiculous? Especially when you regularly see another woman 😀
Can I let this go pass? 🙂
A weapon is far more deadly concealed. If you cannot understand this concept then we should spend time discussing about the pretty fighters that people have total access to at airshows because we’re comparing looks not the military application of these systems.
A weapon is not like a trophy wife that you show off to others though many third world nations do exactly that with fighters.
GoldenDragonMost of the world’s nations have militaries and military projects. They also have secret projects but no one is so afraid of truth that they refuse to talk abut their so called frontline fighter. Even the USSR and the Luftwaffe had no qualms showing off their top end planes.
The Luftwaffe NEVER showed off the Me262 before combat. Or the Me163. Or the Ju 248.
Forget about even mentioning the USSR which hid practically every aircraft for years. They even hid tanks like the Type 64 for years. Look at the Jane’s and Salamander’s hypothetical drawings of the “new” Sukhoi (SU-27) from the 1980s.
You have to pretty much believe that the world operates like a board game where you have tell everyone what you have so you could brag about it. :rolleyes:
BTW, even a free nation like the US keep the F-117 project hidden for years. We have no idea about how many black projects like the Auroras there are or were.
Except for this “superpower”, no other country in the world refuses to talk about its primary weapons nor covers up deaths of AWACS engineers.
🙂 This “superpower” was only named a “peer competitor” by repeated Pentagon reports. But thanks anyways. China itself claims to be a third world nation.
But even without the J-10, this “superpower” sports an aircraft sales list that is longer than any nation in the world outside the UNSC’s permanent members.
But of course, it is a permanent member.
GoldenDragonThe JF-17 would seem to be a perfectly suitable replacement for the J-7 series as a point defense interceptor or a light strike aircraft, but Pakistan would still do well to find itself a heavy interceptor with serious counter-air capability.
The JF-17 will be more than capable of its role in replacing the J-7 and Q-5 in Pakistani inventory. And because it belongs to Pakistan, it will replace those other two in numbers and then some.
The J-10 would be a far better fit for this role. In terms of combat persistance, a J-11B might even be a better fit still, but then there’s the issue of exporting a FLANKER copy, and I’m not sure if Russia would be too happy with that. Of course, if China can manufacture all the necessary components, then just like with the J-7, it might not matter what Russia thinks!
The J-11B will evolve into something else in the future. Because once you can make every component, you can change them enough to make a new plane. But it depends on the J-10 and the multiple J-XX/XXJ projects. Pakistan is almost certain to get whatever is coming down the pike.
Neither does a few hundred FLANKERs and a bunch of J-10s, if you want to go that route.
And it’s not. As I said before, most Chinese pretty much assume those hundreds of Flankers won’t survive against major US intervention.
Pakistan is not facing the US. Whatever they’ll get on their JF-17s would be plenty enough for a few dozen Flankers.
That’d be a basic, early 80’s Su-27. That has very little relevance when you’re talking about a much more modern Su-30 series aircraft.
It has EVERY relevance. Not only is the Flanker itself untested but more importantly, the main weapon, the BVR, is untested.
Beyond visual range kills is practically an American monopoly. The vast majority of confirmed combat kills with SARH or ARH AAMs come from the US — 99.5% of them. Even if we take in the unconfirmed ones of the Iranians and their Phoenixes, BVR combat is pretty much American and American only.
GoldenDragonSo, with his baiting, again the sequence of putdowns and counterputdowns begins, and we can definitely rise above it.
Only “putdowns” came from those not Pakistani or Chinese and this is a Pakistani thread.
What counts is what professionals think of the IAF, not forum jockeys or baiters..in that respect, professionals who have “fought” against the IAF know what it is worth.
The only professionals that have actually fought the IAF is the PAF. It was far more than a match.
If you need to bring in Western opinion, an American fighter pilot no less than Chuck Yeager has commented on the PAF and its ability.
If need be, we can even see what two USAF professionals posted about the IAF on F-16.net- nor were they doing PR or doing feel good..
There have been US professionals talking about Singaporean, Taiwanese, Thai, etc. for decades before there were ever exercises between the IAF and the USAF. Very few of those nations feel the need to bring up praises over training exercises to stake a claim that they are somehow first world.
Perhaps, they don’t have the same baggage of military irrelevance and historic weakness to overcome.
The difference between the Singaporean pilot and the Indian one is the Singaporean doesn’t brag about “winning” an exercise. This was more than amply illustrated in 2004 when the Indian newspapers began heralding “victory” which led to laughter in Singapore and the rest of the Far East.
GoldenDragonPakistan may not face a first world airforce but they were able to survive so far mainly because they had a lot of free US stuff.
Hardly a shame when their opponent received more alms from both the West and the USSR and from Western charities than any other country in the post war era. Pakistan never received a dime from the USSR and has actually shot down fighter planes of that particular former superpower.
That may not be the case in the future if the majority of the Pakistani stuff is a from a country which is so afraid of the truth that it tries to hide AWACS crashes and refuses to talk about its “top” fighter jets.
:rolleyes: Yes, the world’s militaries always speak the “truth” so that their opponents would know each and everything item in their inventory :rolleyes:
There are nations who fight wars and would do whatever it takes to achieve their national objectives and there are nations of pacifists who believe that if the other military “lies” to them, it is unfair :rolleyes:
Makes you wonder if even the PAF thinks that the FC-1 is good for combat outside of the photoshop realm.
They will be building these photoshop aircraft in their homeland. But perhaps you think that a photoshop aircraft is more than enough for their needs considering that their opponents inspire self-meditation instead of action.
GoldenDragonWhat’s a “first world” air force? A developed country with an industrialized economy that can field first rate aircraft in the hundreds if not thousands.
Just 36 F-16s to Pakistan is sending concern arcing through the subcontinent. The USAF has over two thousand. There is no comparison between over 1600 F-15s and just 20 Su-30K and another 19 MKIs.
Pakistan does not face a first world air force. And what it has coming is more than good enough.
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