GoldenDragonWhatever the PAF has in the JF-17 would be plenty enough for what it would face.
There is no air force in Asia outside the modernized Far Eastern states (Japan, Taiwan and South Korea) that has anywhere near a first world air force.
Forty Flankers does not a first world air force make — especially when the Flanker’s track record in battle consists of only shooting down other Russian aircraft.
The PLAAF has hundreds of Flankers and most Chinese realize that these won’t last long against the US. But against nations outside of the US and the major powers in the West, they are plenty good enough.
As for planning for the future, timing of delivery is more important than total number projects. The chances are the PAF will start receiving F-16s and JF-17s in 2007.
GoldenDragonLet’s post some actual news for discussion. And this is a pretty interesting piece.
No clue as if it is one of the Y-8 variants or the KJ-2000.
Either way, it would have a technical advantage in integrating the J-7PGs, JF-17s and F-10s scheduled for the PAF.
Though the new F-16s might have a harder time being synched up. But who knows. The FD-60 SARH bvr is being promoted specifically for American-supplied aircraft (and we would persume, their radars, since a semi-active radar homer would be useless without integration.)
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?150966
Chinese Defence delegation arrives soon for test, trial of AWACS
Saturday July 29, 2006 (0153 PST)
ISLAMABAD: A high powered Chinese Defence delegation is due to arrive here shortly for a test and trial of their Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS).
The team is arriving just moths after Pakistan announced it was going ahead with the purchase of the Swedish Early Warning System (ERIEYE).
The Chinese system is said to be cost-effective and state of the art which is designed for both Airborne Early Warning (AEW) and Airborne Command and Control (AC&C) missions.
Pakistan has been in need of such a system for continuous surveillance of border and sea lanes of communication.
The system from China represents the current best choice of AWACS with powerful mission capability and availability in a cost effective package.
GoldenDragonclose to 180-190 Su-30MKI’s , 126 MRCA (mig-35 (AESA) , Rafale (AESA) , SH (AESA ) or EF (AESA) , Upgraded Mig-29’s , M2k-5’s , LCA , MIG FIFTH GEN. FIGHTER in addition to Phalcon AWACS + indegenous AWACS . A threat from R-77 , KS-172 , Maybe Aim-120 or Meteor is pretty close to first world as one can get in asia !!!
The actual first world air forces in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea) don’t have to cite a list where the most of the items do not exist today and have no guarantee of existing in the numbers quoted tomorrow or anytime soon.
GoldenDragonSuprising then, as PAF tends to put a very high emphasis on avionics, and considering that they managed to purchase 36 F-16s and Erieyes, I expect them to have enough money to upgrade the avionics.
Link to to aforementioned articles please.
The PAF has an Air Force trained and structured along the lines of the US and UK air force and prefer western equipment.
But, again, unless it is fighting the US, whatever is on the JF-17 is plenty good enough. If you try to arm yourself against the US, you need the US economy to do so. You equip your force for what you need to contend against. Pakistan is not facing anyone from the first world.
GoldenDragonActually, situations exist where 4th generation – 4.5th generation jets can be enough of a deterrent to the U.S. Air force – especially if the U.S. military is not willing to commit a large amount of resources to the battle.
Almost no situations.
As for Iraq, they had a very limited amount of MiG-29As, and they were not used. Saddam did not scramble the Iraqi air force, as it would have been useless. He ordered planes to be buried, apparently.
Iraq had a larger and more well equipped air force than almost anyone else outside Europe and East Asia. Most nations in the world would not come close to Iraq’s air force.
[quote]
Say, for example, Taiwan took the unlikely step of declaring formal independence, and the PRC took the even more unlikely step of enforcing attempting to rejoin Taiwan by force.
The most powerful blow on Taiwan would be economic. The second would be internal warfare by the massive chunk of the population that still considers itself Chinese. The first will exacerbate the second. Both sides know this and expects no war because of it as judging by the massive investment across the Taiwan Straits (if people feel war is inevitable, investment would flee instead of piling in as it has been happening for the last two decades.)
If we stick to the military aspect, the J-10 has no chance unless it is used in great numbers. The same with the Su-30s. China is one of the few states in the world that could even comprehend having 300 plus of aircraft of any one type, never mind 4th generation.
Most non-western nations, even fairly well off ones like Malaysia, have between 30 to 40 modern fighters. Countries on war-time setting would have more like Iraq but we saw how far it got the Iraqi air force.
Air forces in the most parts of the world is heavy in expenditure but extremely light in practicality. Outside the West, wars and conflicts are fought and won nearly entirely on the ground. If you’re unlucky enough to be attacked by the US, the way is guerilla warfare on land not fighting it out with the US military in the air or at sea.
GoldenDragonIts a deteriorating margin at best. India will likely attempt to develop its indigenous technologies, leaving sources of funding for Russia hard. It is hard to hold on to a lead when your best scientists head for the west.
Not to mention that the Chinese provided more far funds to the Russia military complex over the years than any other. In fact, for Russian fighter development in particular, China provided the majority of funds, for systems going to the Russian air force.
The SM and MKK variants slated for the Russian air force’s own modernization ARE from the Chinese programs.
Any cutback on funds coming from China impacts Russia adversely. There isn’t anyone else who can pick up the slot. China is economically the most well off of all of Russia’s customers by a wide margin.
Goldendragon:
Nothing will come close to ever being able to fight off a determined U.S. invasion, the only hope is that enough damage will be done to deter an invasion. To this extent, stockpiles of strategic weaponary plus a solidly 4th generation fighter jet will deliver enough losses to make war painful.
Even the European Union will have a hard time fighting off the Atlantic fleet alone, let alone the power the U.S. can bring in a total war.
For most nations of the world, 4th generation jets are worthless as a deterent against the US. Iraq had more than a few frontline MiG-29s along with the world’s fifth or sixth largest military in 1990.
Against almost anyone else, the J-10 (or FC-1 or F-7PGs for that matter) are more than good enough. There is a reason why the F-7s are still selling today.
GoldenDragonThanks for the pics!
Gorgeous paintjob for the BAF’s Thundercats. That squadron always had some stunning livery.
GoldenDragonThe attitude among among Chinese is the J-10 would probably have the same chance against American aircraft as the Su-30 or any other Russian fighter.
Basically very little chance at all.
The difference between the J-10 and the Su-30 is you are not paying Russia for planes that will be blown out of the sky by anything American. The numbers don’t lie, not when the score is around 160 to zero (or 160 to five just to spot the Russians something) for the F-15 and F-16.
But aside from the USAF or the USN, the J-10 or the FC-1 will be more than capable enough to take care of air forces owned by their neighbors. Pakistan is not going to fight the United States (neither is Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or Nigeria.)
If the US does attack, your best bet is to abandon all aircraft (and armor and anything that’s mechanical) and fight a guerilla war in the hills like the Vietnamese.
GoldenDragonIt annoys me that Western nations play Asians against one another. Pure evil.
Westerners have always played Asians against each other. Unfortunately there are plenty of Asians, exemplified by the Japanese, who relished being considered “honorary” westerner and in attacking other Asians.
That said, the situation in today’s Taiwan and China tends towards peace than war. China doesn’t want war because they feel time is on their side. If there is no war, China will allow time and culture to bring Taiwan back into the fold. The pro-Chinese fraction on Taiwan feels the same way. This is why the Taiwanese parliament had refused to pass any of the major arms bills.
Only a rash decision to declare independence now would bring about war. And the only way for the Taiwanese independent group would do that is to have Americans promise to die for Taiwan.
The Taiwanese independence folks can’t even be sure that the pro-Chinese forces on Taiwan itself won’t win much less the PLA invasion force from China. The most loyal force for an independent Taiwan would be the US military not the RoC one, which was taught for decades to fight for an unified China.
GoldenDragonBecause its obvious to me that with your attitude you are either a Chicom or a sniveling little toadie to the Chicoms…and Tibet has everything to do with China’s true colors and what would happen to many of its other neighbors if the “imperialist’ Americans weren’t around to stop them.
That’s like me saying every word from you makes me think that you’re a neo-nazi or a sniveling little sneak paid by the zionist order to create war between the US and China.
The Chinese world, including China, is the most dynamically capitalistic part of the world today. A “commie” nation would not subject itself to world trade like China.
Look at China’s place in the world’s market (the world’s number one in the consumption of televisions, cellphones, refrigerators, meat products and just about everything else) and look at the old USSR where you had to wait in line with a ration coupon for a block of cheese.
Understand a little about what is “communism” before throwing the word around.
GoldenDragonA row of JH-7As under pavilion hangar!
GoldenDragonI think your righyt googler, got ahead of myself there a bit, still does anybody know of the operational status of the chinese BVRAAM’s.
The only official status for Chinese bvr AAMs is PL-11 for J-8IIs. Since the J-10 is not official, the PL-12 only arms the late J-8II variants as far as Chinese press is concerned. The PL-11 would still be the standard AAM.
The PL-11 is only recently acknowledged officially through the advertizement of the FD-60. And the reason it is publicized is probably because the PL-12 has superceded it in service.
The first Chinese PL-4 was fitted on J-8II back in the 1980s and early 1990s. There was also the PL-10 which might or might not have been the immediate ancestor of the PL-11.
The Flanker fleet has the R-27 (Su-27) and R-77 (Su-30MKK).
GoldenDragonIronically, if China wasn’t so pigheaded, and actually left Taiwan to live in peace while allowing the Taiwanese unfettered access into the Chinese market, the Chinese economy would benefit greatly from the injection of Taiwanese capital and ingenuity. But I’m sure no such rational outcome would have occurred to those currently in charge of China, and obsessed with some illusory notion of “face” and revenge.
The Taiwanese actually have unfettered access to the Chinese market. Taiwan is the largest investor in China after Hong Kong. China is Taiwan’s largest market and is currently at the point where if Taiwan is cut off from the Chinese market, the Taiwanese economy would actually collapse.
The human connection is binding tighter and tighter every year. There are a million and half Taiwanese living in China. When Olympics are held millions of Taiwanese cheer on Chinese athletes as a matter of Chinese pride. There are huge amounts of Taiwanese Americans cheering on Yao Ming.
The most highly publicized cases of Chinese espionage in the US were actually Taiwanese. China doesn’t want war and is pursuing the exactly the course that you describe. The only ones that “want” war are those on the American and Japanese right who is encouraging the lame duck Chen Shu-bian.
There won’t be war if it were up to China because time is on China’s side. Every year that goes by Taiwan and the mainland is binded tighter through economics, culture and people exchanges.
There can ONLY be war if the Taiwanese independence folks believe that the US will fight for them. Because there is no guarantee that all of the ROC’s armed forces will fight for an independent “Formosa.” In fact, the Taiwanese military had always be taught to fight for a united China.
GoldenDragonCNN and Fox news also reported that the missile that hit the Israeli corvette is an Iranian produced C-102 missile.
Fox News had animation and stats on the three missiles in Hezbollahs inventory.
1) C-102 anti-ship missile
2) C-802 anti-ship missile
3) Shahab-3 ballistic miisile.
Fox News then went over Hezbollah’s rocket inventory.This is the first time I have ever heard of the C-102 missile!
That is really bizarre. There is no C-102.
The smaller C-701 is a possibilty as discussed earlier. The C-201 is a Styx-based AShM and it and its related classes are what the West normally call a “Silkworm.”
The C-80X series are harpoon-type weapons (surface-skimming and pop up terminal phases) known to NATO designation as “Saccade.”
I don’t think you could rule out the C-802 based on the damage. Proximity fuzes on all AShMs make for possibility of near, not just direct, hits.
GoldenDragonAn Israeli officer told the Chinese official press that it was an Iranian built version of the C-802 that hit its naval vessel.
http://english.people.com.cn/200607/16/eng20060716_283531.html
Damaged Israeli warship hit by missile made in Iran
Damaged Israeli warship deployed off Lebanese coast was hit by missile which was made in Iran, said an high ranking Israel Defense Forces officer.
The missile, type C-802, is radar guided, with an range of 60 miles, the officer told Xinhua.
Previously, the army confirmed that one soldier on board the attacked vessel was killed while his body was found in the water, but the other three soldiers were still missing.
The military are attempting to locate the rest three missing sailors and has informed their respective families of the events.
Four sailors from an Israeli warship got missing Friday night, after the vessel was hit by a projectile launched by Lebanese Hizbollah, according to the Israeli military.
The military confirmed on Friday night that one of its navy ship deployed off Lebanon coast was hit by a rocket, and the attack caused damage to the vessel.
Lebanese ANB television also reported that Hizbollah pounded an Israeli gunboat with rocket Friday night, adding that the vessel was sinking.
Source: Xinhua
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