The Norwegian government notes that “despite changes made by other partner nations, Norway finds that its previous and robust real-cost estimates remain accurate.”
So much for SAAB’s costs being overestimated by 300%.
I have no doubt that SAAB can keep costs down, I just doubt they can compete with fixed costs when the other guy is building 10-20 times the fighters you are.
The Dev costs of the F-35 are spent (ie sunk) and do not affect the production cost of the F-35 (which is what we are talking about). For example, Japan is not going to be paying directly for dev costs (the partners will make some money back by building the parts for FMS sales).
There are a lot of fixed, yearly costs involved in fighter programs that add a lot to their costs. These include (but are not limited to) rent & upkeep on factory space, ongoing development of maintenance procedures as problems appear, development of upgrades, integration of new weapons & equipment, development of pilot & maintainer training programs, Component Improvement Programs, etc, etc.
With a lifetime program as small as the NG vs a program as large as the F-35, each F-35’s share of those costs could be about 5-10% the cost shared by each NG built. That is just fixed cost allotment and does not even begin to touch economy of scale savings.
Design cost (I presume you mean dev cost) does not affect production cost.
I never said that with the same build rates that the F-35 will cost less than the NG. That would be an absurd assumption.
The fact, however, is that the F-35 will be built in numbers reaching 10X the annual build rate for the NG. This fact will drive the price of the F-35 down due to all the fixed costs being spread across a large number of airframes.
If building more than 20 a year has no benefit, than why has the estimates (FY2012 to FY2013) changed so much when the rate was cut to 20?
FY2013 went from 24 jets at $131 to 19 at $153
FY2014 went from 40 jets at $107 to 19 at $147
By the time you got to the height of production (and where a vast majority of the partner F-35s would be built), SDD would be over (so no concurrency or “BETA” version).
Right… building 10X more a year will not make it cheaper. 😉
Where are you having a problem with what I said? The F-35 is relatively cheap due to it’s high annual build numbers that the NG could never hope to match. That affordability lasts its entire life as parts costs and development costs can be spread across a MUCH larger user base.
A large user-base also allows for a more competitive mfg base and multiple suppliers per part.
I may have not said it correctly, but the higher cost of the C vs the A has a lot to do with materials, but not the only reason. Larger parts also require more machining & labor costs.
The only part of the F-35 that has gone over “by a wide margin” is the SDD phase. Procurement numbers have not changed much.
And yes, the F-35 only truly becomes relatively cheap in large numbers, but that is why they built up the Partner nations in order to achieve what none could do on their own.
So you think a fighter that is being build in <10 a year mode can compete with one being build in > 200 a year mode?
Or
A survivable 13+ fighter being produced in HUGE annual build numbers is cheaper to acquire and operate than a 7.5 ton conventional fighter which is likely to be produced in very small annual numbers.
With an internal gun on the C might still leave it with a slight range advantage over the A as there is still more fuel in the wings (offset by the increased drag of a larger wing).
On the cost front, this is Flyaway (REC I think) in baseline (2010 IIRC) dollars. He was talking about the average across all 75 F-35s, not the initial 14.
Did you mean that the C would have the advantage over the A because of more fuel ?
Currently the C has a range advantage over the A. But, if the USAF were to have bought the C instead of the A, then they would have asked for an internal gun which would have meant a loss of some of that range advantage and an in increase in price over the baseline C.
The C is 4,500lb heavier than the A (34,800lb vs 29,300lb empty) . You are correct in that wing folding mechanisms, tail hooks, and dual nose-wheels also add to the cost.
Then again, the C does not have a gun which would add even more cost to the C if it were used for the AF. It would also loose out on range since the gun would take up fuel space.
Does not have a gun IIRC
Correct, forgot that one.