star49The low top-end speed was in no small part thanks to the severely underpowered engines.
Both of these aircraft would seem to be about equal on paper, but both of them are probably greatly outclassed by their stablemates: J-10 for the PLAAF, and Mirage 2000-5 or a newer F-16 variant for the RoCAF.
compare common operational configuration in Air to Air as seen from Pictures
J-10. 2 wvr+2 bvr +3 ET.
F-16A. 4 wvr+2bvr+ 3 ET (No CFT or wingtip AIM-120)
M2K-5 6 Mica+ 3 ET.
Only advantage of M2K-5 is larger fuel tanks like adv F-16 and 6 BVR and J-10 with stronger engine in non-afterburning thrust but not enough for supercruise.
I havent seen strike configuration to make any comparision.
star49Su-30 and Su-34 cannot sustain Mach 1.2/Mach 1.4 at low altitude flight. What makes you think they can? Drag eats up power, and Su-30/34 wings are designed for maneuverbility not low interdiction speed. Going supersonic at low altitude will burn up your fuel rather quickly. You’re the one short of proof, trying to say you can intercept a low flying interdictor. Furthermore, design of the Flanker, meant more for medium altitude performance, isn’t meant to ride smoothly over low air turbelence. I doubt that an Su-30 can chase down an Su-24 Fencer or MiG-27 for this reason.
there is change of wing in Su-34 from prototypes build 2004 onwards. this totally different class of aircraft.
That is a news report. A published article.
so any source for that.
Go ahead and try to prove that Phazotron has model called JL-10A.
First u try to prove JH-7A combat radius with 7 tons external load?
What nonsense. The Su-27 Pace was shown is a two seater. China does not make two seaters. All the two seater Su-27s were imported from Russia, made by Irkut specifically.
China can certainly make the Su-27 airframe but chose not to license certain components such as avionics since they after all obsolete and have already designed domestic counterparts for those, and these are intended for the J-11B.
they were not referring directly to Pace twin seater in news report but Chinese build Su-27 with some russian avionic components.
and there aint any difference between twin seater and single seater interms of support equipment.
It means they are able to catch a single test. It does not mean the US were able to detect the others. You are talking about the missiles where there is a lot of pictures of it being launched from ships, and one which is already standard in planes, subs and ships of the PLA.
or they just want to publicise only one test. It is US discretion what to publicize and what not. J-7/J-8 are also pretty standard so?
In other words, there is no third party to verify your results. How quiant. Meaning its still subject to doubt.
why they need third party?
Irrelevant. Despite your SCIENCE, its still a poor country with a massive trade imbalance with China for basic finished goods.
so scientist should work in factories producing cheap goods. by that standard even Germany is poor the world largest exporter. $1.5Trillion but most of them are not end products for consumers.
Oh you mean they got no money. You don’t have high wages with a depressed economy.
the only place where wages are constant for factory workers in China because of rural migration. why russia needs factories when they can get high paying service sector jobs. wage growth is 30%.
Bull. You think that the US cannot design a missile isn’t smarter than Club/Brahmos?
so they should design it. Just like BMW and Mercedes.
You really have no idea what a Harpoon can do. Harpoons can set themselves up for a multiaxis attack. They can do waypoints towards the target. They can go past the target and attack from another direction. They can be diverted midway in flight to attack another target or if the primary target has already been sunk. They can respond to changes of enemy tracking radar to determine if a lock on is present and will try to make evasive maneuvers.
Harpoon is the low end of antiship missiles as compared to Club/Brahmos. India is considering it for helis.
Lol. Standards have successfully intercepted high supersonic Vandal drones. that is for sure.
are they smart drones ?and and at what height.
star49Really. What is pure nonsense is your bull. Thunderchiefs and Phantoms were quite capable of sorties in that range you speak of, and they do it fast and low.
I havent seen evidence of 7 tons sorties on internal fuel alone? that u keep referring
At high altitude the Su-30 will not fly faster, because of the sheer weight of the missile. Unlike the JH-7A, the Su-30’s aerodynamics are meant for maneuverability and low speed turning. It is not meant for fast cruising and low flight like the JH-7A. I doubt that an Su-30 can catch even a JH-7A flying low, and an Su-30 won’t catch an F-111, Tornado, or Su-24 at the deck either. You have no idea that the planes are optimized for speed low level flight, and these requires a specially designed set of aerodynamics. An Su-30 would have a difficult time at high speed in low level due to its low wing loading which will subject the aircraft to a lot of shaking and turbulence, and its airframe and wings are indeed considerably draggy, since the airframe and the wing are meant to be maneuverable, whereas the JH-7A is acutely swept, have a higher wing loading, which will give you a smooth ride along the deck.
Su-30 can fly low at Mach 1.2 and Su-34 can go even lower to tree top height at Mach 1.4 (fly by abstacle)and u say it cannot catch obsolete underpowered JH-7 whose Mach 1 is even in doubt even in clean configuration. just look at Sens Post. nothing can compensate underpowered jet especailly in nonafterburning thrust. AL-31 is very good in non afterburning almost 7600KG and 9,700KG for 117S and AL-31FM in between. they are of totally different capability in economical crusie.
It is certainly not slow. One article described a whole formation of them dropping from 30,000ft, then suddenly pulling up near sea level. Lol, a perfect text book beam maneuver that will drop the plane off the radar by exploiting doppler notch and enter the target area at low altitude.
these are unproven stories to create false impression.
The wings are well swept for low drag. The radar is quite big, somewhere in between a MiG-29 and an Su-27, and it is a slotted array with modern electronics.
Radar?
And where is proof that it is not? The fact that the missile has proven it once, is more than enough, especially if this was confirmed by US intelligence. Have you have Russian missile tests whose range is confirmed by the US, actual observation by a third party?
they a confirm a single test (who knows they may even exaggarating it for there own purpose). Russia does not need any external confirmation. There Science is proven. u have examples of Professors directly hired by Ivyleague like Stanford from 70s Phd batch when China was making bicycles under communism.
Just India alone has conducted 13 Brahmos tests.
Wrong. Short life span? The planes are new. Where is your proof or claim taht the planes have a short life for overhaul? Its not like the way the PLAAF complains that the Su-27s require frequent servicing—the PLAAF vision commander even mentioned to USMC General Pace that their service warranty is only so so.
that Su-27 shown was made in China so it just show poorly on China that even after 15 years it cannot make parts for it. Russia factories are either closing because of high wages or under renovation. so there is less tendency for export except for technical cooperation.
Wrong. It is you who don’t know science and technology. Electronic speeds occur much much faster than even the speeds of a supersonic missile. Seconds is an eternity in time to a modern processor. A closed loop feed back system like a CIWS can be fast enough to take down a supersonic missile. It has been shown before using supersonic Vandal drones.
drones does not have software brain that makes Club/brahmos type missiels so expensive. it isnot the speed alone but artificial intelligence that makes there end trajectory so un predictable. it is not a straight line.
What the? You are making yourself a fool talking about science and now quoting this whatchamacallit. You keep forgetting, despite your science, that SAMs are often fired not locked on, but will lock on after launch. All the radar needs is to bring the SAM near the target, and the missile seeker will do its own seperate lockon much closer to the target, either via SARH or ARH means.
SAMs near to the target and than SAMs does not where the target will be next moment at Mach 3 speed at such low altitude. It is near impossible to get a hit. India knows this thats why they are buying 1000 Brahmos for Tri service and they have pretty much access to best anti missile stuff.
star49Sorry but that is the factory spec. I prefer to believe the factory than your opinion, which is not worth anyone’s fartgas.
can u give a link to that funny specifications?
My opinion?
Yup, all the time. Its standard issue and is frequently seen on the J-10s as well.
J-10 fuel tanks are smaller than even M2K.
Except that the JH-7A is a much bigger and longer ranged plane, and you probably only have a hundred because the PLAAF/PLANAF still has other alternatives including updated H-6s, J-10s and J-11Bs. YJ-83 is lighter than Kh-59 but this means you can carry more. Unlike the Kh-59, the YJ-83 does not require an external datalink pod to extend its datalink range. A JH-7A can carry four of these missiles, while an Su-30MKK can only carry two Kh-59, which also suffers from an RCS problem due to having an exposed turbojet. The YJ-83 keeps its engine within the missile boreline.
http://www.knaapo.ru there are 4 Kh-59 per Su-30MK2. Su-35 will have 5.
J-11 and J-10 are yet to be shown in Strike form. there are more J-11 build than JH-7
even Pakistan considered J-10 avionics not upto high tech standard. (possibly referring to AtoG modes). there is no evidence than u can carry more YJ-83 with its smaller warhead. It is suitable for gunboats not for ships.
And you think it won’t take time for an Su-34 to do so? There is no difference in speed and vulnerability if an Su-30 has to carry two of the Klubs, which an airborn variant has never been developed.
how do u know about Russia missle developments? they have more than 200 tests in one testing range alone last year.
Su-34 is designed from ground up to taking care of short comings in Su-30.
Su-30 is widely tested in around the world with different loads from hot climates of North Africa to harsh siberian winter. JH-7 has yet to pass a single test in foreign grounds despite showing in airshows for a decade now.
The latest version of the Kh-31 is not yet in service. Nor has it been tested first.
again how do u know that? Russia is ready to release export version of antiradiation with more than 200km range. just think about what they had for there own service.
Sorry, but there are now unique cars in China.
unque cars like ?.
There is no proof that the radar is derived from Phazotron’s. The designation JL-10A is not the least bit Phazotron’s ((which underlines your sheer ignorance on that matter—even on Russian radars)) but that of the Chinese manufacturer. The radar was already flying on the JH-7 prototype in the mid to late nineties even before China got Zhuks for evaluation, and those went to a completely different company.
It is very clear stated in Flight International several times that Phozotron was helping in JL-10 project in mid 90s. China cannot even manage to build radar for F-7 at that time. Playing with superskyranger
The radar only needs to spot the launching vehicle. I doubt you can launch the missile at 400km.
radar spot the launch vehicle and than?
missiles are launched with more than 2000km from BlackJack and hit the window and fully tracked by A-50.
Another false stealthy claim. You obviously don’t know science, beginning with cylindrical bodies make poor RCS subjects because of their tendency for radar highlights. And I have yet to see a supersonic missile sink a ship in a true battlefield capacity.
false claim? I will take there claim very serously. u dont have a full idea who build the Science foundation of US and Israel. certainly not by potato farmers and railroad workers.
u will see plenty of ships sunk by Supersonic missiles if India or Russia launches a Naval war. and where is true battlefield any way?
star49That’s total bs, do you have an idea of the amoung of internal fuel that JH-7 has and the fuel efficiency of WS-9 at its cruising speed of mach 0.85? Nothing AL-31F can even compare with.
do u think i study obsolete stuff. U will never see me commenting on F-111/Su-24.
The 1650 km combat radius of JH-7A is measured with 7000 kg of payload. I have Chinese articles that state this.
1650km combat radius:eek: with 7 ton external load. Has there any picture in Air of it lifting even 5 tons. not propanda pictures on ground.
Meaning, JH-7A should have that 1650 km range with any mission.
1650km combat radius for any mission:eek: . Has Chinese aircraft even lifted 2000 Litre ET let alone 2500/3000 Litre ones.
Including ones where it has to carry for air launch YJ-83Ks, PL-8s and other missiles. Something that even the much talked about su-34 doesn’t have. So, before you bs more, you have to check what’s going on. PLA is continuously ordering JH-7A, but we don’t see any more order of su-30s.
continuosly ordering JH-7A. thats why u have only 100 despite having engine license and more than 15 years of work on 60s era bomber. even Indians managed to build more Jaguars. and YJ-83 is i think even lighter than Kh-59 with smaller warhead.
A regiment of JH-7A can launch over 100 YJ-83K or KD-88 on targets up to 1900 KM away from its home base and still have enough fuel to come back to its home base.
provided that regiment of JH-7 can even lift simulataneously. it will need alot of time to reach 1900km with ET and air refuelling. time consuming process. some of them will not even come back sound
And yes, YJ-83K and KD-88 easily have range of 250 KM. The export version of sea launched C-802A even has range of 180 km and the Iranians have managed to up that to 200 km with Noor.
easy have range of 250KM? and Iranians also made a Stealth boat and super torpedo:p
That’s with C-802 travelling a lo profile the entire way. We have US intelligence reporting air launched range of over 250 km as early 2005.
low profile all the way? unless u provide conditions for airlaunnced range it means nothing. even latest version KH-31 can go more than 200km all supersonic.
You still think that now after 2 more years of operation with the entire PLAN pretty much using YJ-83, that it’s not mature or that it doesn’t have that kind of range? Not only does it have that kind of range, but JH-7A also has a radar that can make good use of it.
In China there millions of clones of Japanese/German cars but it does not mean that they are the same thing. JH-7A radar is down graded stuff from Phozotron JL-10A project. China can collect all the hardware of making radar but it cannot make the software to fully exploit it. u can only make medium tech stuff like FC-1
star49That would be using the term “class” liberally to describe the license version. Even the Russians hold something back in license deals when it comes to sensitive technologies like turbofans.
this from yesterday news.
there is no evidence of license engine even in prototype aircraft. read Engine is managed by China not Build.
The PAF Chief said, 15 aircraft would be manufactured in 2008 while 20 in the next year with the aim to achieve capability to manufacture 25 to 30 aircraft per year.
Answering a question, he said the provision of engine for the aircraft was being managed by China and expressed the hope that there would hardly be any influence of any third country to affect the project.
He said the engine of the aircraft was an improved version of MIG-29 aircraft of Russia and the manufacturer (Russia) has already signed an agreement with China for their uninterrupted supply for JF-17 Thunder
star49Engine is the strongest point of FC-1. latest RD series are in class of EJ-200/F-414 with TWR of 9 in K and they already managed more than 10.
from factory website.
http://www.avia500.ru/ru/produce/motor/rd33/
star49That is the stated range by the manufacturer with standard armament 6000-7000kg of load.
thats is pure nonsense. cant believe u even stated this on forum. I dont think with 7 tons of external load an underpowered and aerodynamically obsolete jet like JH-7 can even go 300 to 400km. It will take an hour just to reach require altitude for some decent speed. It is hopeless.
And you think that an Su-30 flying with a heavy high RCS profile like the Klub would do any better.
At high altitude Su-30 can fly faster, Radar can see further the threats on horizon, club range is limited by MTCR and can fly faster towards the targets so giving more time for Su-30 to do simultaneous BVR fight or disenage rapidly after firing missiles.
It is not slow, but it is not high flying.
how u know it is not slow? how far its radar can see at such a low altitude?. what is seeker range of missile.
Wrong. It has standard warhead.
where is a proof that it is standard. It is just a single test. It does not mean there is operational missile of 255km range. it is not like 13 tests of Brahmos.
Where is your proof that China has low operational readiness? They have all the budgets and domestic resources to improve that.
when product is obsolete and have short life span for overhaul. u cannt get the flight hrs no matter how much u spent on it. it will spent more time in workshop.
You don’t understand science at all.
Not the kind of science that u understand. an antimissile system does not have the ability to quickly predict and intercept the fast maneuvrs of supersonic missile. detection is meaningless when u cannot get a lockon. there is element of artificial intelligence and most antimissile systems can only launch two missiles at same time and if they miss the supersonic missile hits.
star49The JH-7 has an operational range of 1650km. And while there is nothng in the report that says it is conducted at low altitude, there is nothing that says it is at high. The JH-7 is a low altitude mission striker, so we have to assume it is launched at its mission profile.
Operational range of 1650KM? i doubt it can even go 400km with external weopons let alone at low altitude.
There is no benefit to modern air breathing missiles being launched at high altitude and expect them to fire their engines at low. The range gain is minimal, since the missile is in a free drop, lacks big enough wings to glide as opposed to true standoff weapons, and the engine is not optimized high altitudes especially when they have small intakes. The only reason why you launch the missile at high is for a totally different reason, a high flying jet can radar peep through the horizon better and find targets at a greater distance.
and at low altitude aircrat cannot fly further and can be ambushed by enemy fighters from high altitude.
higher altitude is for benefit of aircraft to get decent range and is in position against BVR fight with other aircraft. but i dont expect slow lumbering JH-7 to do that. It is simply not multifunctional aircraft.
And you don’t have any evidence at all that it is high. Both plane and the missile are simply both intended to be used at lower altitudes.
so how u assume it is from low altitude. u cannot even assume there is full warhead weight inside it.
India has 80 to 100 Jaguars?
I believe so. they have been license building them for long time.
And yes being able to make engines inhouse is relevant because the mother country could easily manufacture the parts, as well as have replacement engines handy.
and how that is directly related to operational readiness?
Lol. What a definition. I doubt anyone would buy this.
By your account, a Boeing 737 flying low enough to avoid the AWACS would be stealthy.
offcoures it would be stealth if that AWACS cannot find it at decent range but it does not mean it is stealthy under all conditions.
AWACS is only part of a radar net, and a missile like Sunburn, the least it should concern about is an AWACS. Long range ship born radar can easily extend 400 to 500km into the air, and OTH capabilities may mean the launch ship is being detected long before it gets into firing range. This is worsened because the Sovs lack the radar cross section reduction used by more modern Western and Chinese ships. There also naval patrol aircraft and helicopters and you can be assured, they don’t have the low altitude blind spots of an AWACS. The Sunburn only is only 120km in a low to low flight, for it to get 240km it has to fly high enough to reduce drag, which makes it easily detectable even by AWACS.
shipborne radar finding a missile at 400km? finding does not mean lockon on small fast moving target and when terminal trajectory is unpredicatable.
Iskander-M is bigger than Sunburn and can fly around 27km but it is claimed to be stealthy and no antimissile system can destroy it despite its mach 4 terminal speed. I have yet to see operational supersonic missile downing.
And you do? You have not shown an ounce of scientific competence at this board. All you show about your articles of scientific potential are nothing but hot air.
it is for those who even understand science.
star49Look whose talking? 255km means a lot, especially if the plane is underpowered, which means that range is achieved by not climbing high or and not flying fast. Air breathing cruise missiles and AshMs are not launched from high up, their engines and intakes are not designed to function well at high altitudes. They have to be launched low.
Again there is nothing in the report that test was conducted at low altitude and what will be the JH-7 range will be with such low altitude mission?( reduce to half so whats they point of missile range). modern missiles u can drop from high altitude and take low flight path later.
The JH-7A is a low speed interdictor, its performance is roughly lilke the British F-4 Phantoms it shares its engines with. Since it is a low flying plane, the missile launches should not be in high altitude.
so it becomes low speed and low altitude plane without any evidence?
As for readiness, China now makes the engines under license, and that means they have the facilities to maintain them.
making engines inhouse is irrelevant to the operational readiness of fleet if u think a little harder. and why such small number of JH-7 if u got license. India has more Jaquars for low altitude.
Lol. You think Sunburn is a stealth missile? You have gone off whack. None claims the missile is stealthy.
1. It is composed mostly of metal.
2. Angled intakes will tend to amplify radar reflections.
3. The entire body is cylindrical, which tends to create highlights.Disk mounted AWACS or AEW never traditionally do well on low flying targets because their wings and fuselage has a tendency to obstruct scanning at low angles. That does not mean low flying objects are stealthy. These objects can still be spotted by other aircraft as well as ground radar.
Stealth is relative term. not some fixed target. If AWACS cannot detect sunburn at decent range so it has relative steath against that AWACS. and ground radar can spot at what range? there is S maneours at Mach 3 with Brahmos at last stage which confuses the antimissile system and make it difficult to react at proper time. not sure about Sunburn.
And you do? Obviously you cannot. And you don’t have the inside track to the Rusarms industry as he does. He’s not a very smart guy, and he’s english isn’t perfect, but he also happens to be a Jane’s correspondent and contributor. And what is your qualifications huh?
so one have to be journalist to know the scientific potential of country.
star49I am pretty sure that KANWA has a lot better connections to the Russian arms trade industry than an armchair internet fanboi like you. At least, the guy actually flies around visiting people, for example, talking with the PAF generals.
can kanwa representative speak the technical language of interest with professors , phd students, attend scientific conferences/conventionsand part of cross functional research team. and there is alot more to this.
kanwa is only good for issuing statements nothing to do with science.
star49so now that Crobato has answered your question, you see how easy it is for you to find the answer, huh?
really? he just put a report of 255km range of missile. which is meaningless. there is no mention of JH-7 altitude and speed to achieve that range. and it will take a good amount of time for an externally loaded, underpowered and aerodynamically obsolete aircraft like JH-7 to achieve decent acceleration and altitude. by that time target would have either moved on or taken the defensive measures. (read alittle in depth about Su-34 to see the difference).
and i cannot imagine aircraft powered by 70s era engines have more than 50% operational readiness of fleet. thats why there no takers of this thing anywhere in the world.
So, do you think the Improved Sunburn is a stealth missile then?
depends on target radar. untill recently AWACS could hardly picked up crusie missiles at decent ranges. and with Sunburn speed and manveours. there is less time for react.
star49this was to PTI interview. Brahmos follow on has Mach 7 speed. Every thing is about speed.
Mazurkevich, who heads international cooperation department of the Russian defence ministry, said that one of the reasons for not Russia not keen to export this weapon, “highly lethal for potential enemies”, is that its range could be easily extended from the current 300 km, allowed under Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).
“We are not worried about it as we have nuclear weapons, but this (unauthorised extension of range) may pose threat not only to India but also to our other friends and allies,” Mazurkevich underscored. He said Brahmos is initially an anti-ship cruise missile and Russia is closely cooperating with India in the development of its other variants including land and air based.
“Coupled with Sukhoi Su-30MKI it makes a highly potent weapon system,” General Mazurkevich said.
However, the trial of this system requires heavy financing and Russia would help India in this, he said.
“Two-three trials of Brahmos air force version would equal the cost of a SU-30MKI fighter, but we have expertise, how to do this at much lesser cost,” Mazurkevich said adding that “unveiling and enhancing” the hidden potential of new weapon systems like Brahmos cruise missiles, Su-30MKI fighters and T-90S main battle tanks would be one of the thrust areas Indo-Russian military-to-military cooperation.
star49You really need to read up. The PLAAF and PLANAF is certainly not looking for any air launched Klub missile. Their JH-7As can pack four YJ-83s and an H-6K can potentially pack as much as 8, literally the firepower of some destroyers. They would probably prefer some kind of integration package that would let the MKKs and MK2s use the YJ-83
how many JH-7A and H-6K are operational? what is terminal speed , and warhead of YJ-83? Club range limitations is due to MTCR.
Is there any systems of articial intelligence inside it. russian are masters in this field for weopons system. the only thing in favor of YJ is cheaper price.
You really need to learn more about the arms business. This is a business that openly preys on the ignorant and the technically inept.
so do u think nations buy arms based on public statements to unknown entity like Kanwa.
star49you should read up plaaf a little first, you are just being plain lazy.
so what is in PLAAF besides left over pieces of some one else technology.
yes, again, the point being just because the exporter says its stealthy doesn’t make it stealthy.
An exporter has much more credibility unless it is proven otherwise than some arm chair general.
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