star491,Funny, how clearly is that clearly, Kanwa, which has close link to the Russian source, already deny any Russian involvements in the Chinese KJ2000 project, all you quote either out of date or your own vision,
and what about so many other sources that clearly points that isnt indigenous. do they dont have any connections? u can see from logic no one on this planet can modify IL-76 except Russians.
2.OK, you mean you’re better than Jane’s Radar experts who work on the world electronically scanned radar because the Jane’s experts failed to pick up Russians’ better job yet you did
Do Jane experts also konw who works inside the labs who design these things. who supplied data for airframe testing. or i should put more on this.
star49they are themselve admitting that 30% were technlogies sale before 2003 which they want change to 70% technolgy sale.
Russkii Kurier, December 19, 2003
Tsao Ganchuang’s meetings with his counterpart in Moscow were mostly centered around development of military technology cooperation between Russia and China. This assumption is supported by the fact that the negotiations ended in only one document being signed: a protocol on plans for military technology cooperation between Russia and China in 2004. The protocol was signed behind closed doors. “Military technology cooperation is too sensitive an area to make such documents public,” explained a source in the Defense MinistryChina itself all but admits that it is really after technologies, not finished military hardware. “We want to have technologies amounting to 70% of our military technology cooperation with Russia and deliveries of finished military hardware to 30%. These days, it is vice versa,” a Chinese diplomat was quoted as saying. “This goal is in line with the strategic objective of China becoming self-sufficient
star49Man, digest what people has posted, where did Jane’s mention Russian’s role in the “4-HORSE RACE” AESA radar arena? Hey, you’re saying Russian are doing Chinese “NATIONAL AEW & C effort” yet they theirselves are not in this area? If Russian are not doing the same job, what they can offer?
China has clearly told Russia to remain quiet.
offcourse Russians are not doing the same job. they are doing some thing better.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/07/25/Navigation/177/208039/Farnborough+Business+aviation+in+brief.html
Russia’s Beriev expects to deliver the first of three customised A-50I airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft to the Indian air force in July 2007. The Indian version incorporates Israel’s Phalcon active-array radar, replacing the Russian Vega radar used on previous versions. Beriev general director Victor Kobzev says the company has won a Russian air force order for a major upgrade of in-service A-50s. Beriev is also working on an all-new aircraft, Kobzev says
star49Star49 here never relies on updated information. He just picks and chooses which information, not matter how dated, just to prove his points and has no desire to tell the truth.”
That’s bull. Israel had access to IL-76 data for quite a while to have proposed the structural modifications that were used on the A-50I. the airframe of which was provided by China.
Israel has data for quite a while so why give all the money to Russians and waste three years waiting to get agreement?
Israel had other issues with Russia, prefers to sell its own AWACS, the delays on the Indian Phalcon has more to do with politics.
Israel is the only country capable of stealing the IL-76 data. because of common heritage of ruling elite.
You really cannot put some coherent thought that the Zhuk-27 and the Irbis are several years apart and not even from the same firms. Zhuk-27 is a bigger antenna and emitter version of the original Zhuk aka N-010 designed by Phazotron as a radar upgrade for the MiG-29s.
I know one is from NIIR and the other is from NIIP. the point is that at that time Zhuk-27 does not provide the big jump incapability to pursue it further.
More expensive, how is one mechanical antenna more expensive than the other eh? The fact that China was willing to purchase a few Zhuks to test on their outdated J-8IIs tell you that the Chinese and the price offered to them by Phazotron wasn’t certainly expensive.
willing to purchase and deal is quite different. certainly not expensive how u know that? have u read the statement from russian china experts?
they were willing to purchase 4 phalcons and reduced to 1 at the end..
At that time, the radar is clarly half baked. The Russians do have a tendency to offer half baked items, aka displaying the Kh-59MK antiship missile on the MKK prototype 502 in 2001 Paris Air Show when the missile is only due for development completion in 2006 apparently.
clearly half baked? It is half baked in terms of certifying on MIG-21 airframe with weopons but not half baked in terms of technology.
And again, your news is from Flight International, very good in releasing half baked information.
u have been prove wrong u put Likely equal to Deal. I
And how many do you need to have rotodomes eh? With the balance beam, the rotodome variant became superfluous. No surprise the balance beam is the one the PLAAF is planning to use and the rotodome is the one for export.
obviously u dont know or havent read fully this thing.
Bull****. Articles are very confident that the deal would be consumated that even the Swiss arms registry SIPRI had the 100 Zhuk-8II radars listed in its edition for three years, and then finally deleted it.
articles are confident but they didnot say the deal is done. there other is totally different thing. No Russian deputy prime Minister is going to say publicly on some zhuk radar sets.
If Phazotron had actually shipped Zhemchugs to the J-10, it would have made big news, just as Salut made big news shipping the AL-31FN for the J-10 despite Chinese insistence of secrecy, though at the beginning, Salut did keep its mouth shut until 2002. Phazotron is no less a PR monger than Salut, and given its tendency to preannounce, Phazotron is probably even more eager for the PR.
Dont judge every thing by same standards. that if Salut is making news than the other will do the same especially regarding AWACS. other is so minor thing like selling Grifo license to pak. it should not even make a news.
star49Reed between the lines. Ruaf immedietly started its upgrade of A-50 from there on.
Sergei Sokut
Nezavisimaya Gazeta, November 1, 2000, EV
During his visit to China, Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov made a sensational statement. According to him, Russia will supply warning aircraft to Beijing (AWACS according to NATO classification). The type of plane was not disclosed; but it is obvious that the aircraft in question are A-50 planes, which are used by the Russian Air ForceThe forthcoming deal, which has been prepared unusually quickly by the Russian government, is highly profitable for the Russian defense sector. The Russian Air Force is also likely to receive some dividends from the deal, in the form of research and development. The only losers are Washington and its allies, one of which has lost money, and another has lost a means of defense
star49Jane’s has ever since updated its information on Chinese AWACS, how about you?
Jane has updated about AESA but it does not say who did it for A-50? they are just beliefs. ehre is russian source.
Author: A. Demin
Aviapanorama, No. 2, 2003, pp. 73-77– A REVIEW OF LONG-RANGE RADIO-LOCATING SURVEILLANCE COMPLEXES CREATED IN THE SOVIET UNION AND RUSSIA
The complex was created on the basis of the A-50. The Russian electronics were replaced with a system created by Eltra Electronics (IAI’s branch) on the basis of the EL/M-205 Phalcon radio-locating station. The new modification of the A-50 aircraft had a new pylon and a bigger radome (11.5 meters in diameter). The radome was motionless. However, it was “stuffed” with three phased arrays, which covered all sectors.
The aircraft took off from an airdrome in Taganrog on July 28, 1999. The A-50I (registration number RA-78740) was sent to Israel after fifteen test and seven training flights.
However, the Chinese Air Force did not receive the aircraft. Israel was forced to suspend the project owing to strong political pressure from the US. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon official stated in 2001 that Israel would not build such planes for China. As a result, China decided to purchase Russian AWACS planes.
star49The editor for KANWA also works for Jane’s.
Generally KANWA is quite good for covering Russian affairs. FI has certainly done a poor job in the past.
and what Janes said in 2004 than
JANE’S DEFENCE WEEKLY – APRIL 21, 2004
——————————————————————————–
New ‘Mainstay’ AEW&C aircraft flying in China
Robert Hewson Editor Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons
London
Additional reporting Martin Streetly Editor Jane’s Electronic Mission Aircraft
London
The origin of China’s AEW&C aircraft remains unclear, as does their number. JDW reported that China was seeking to acquire Il-76s from Uzbekistan in 1997, although Russia is unlikely to have permitted this. By 2003 China was understood to be negotiating directly with Russia for the supply of a new A-50 variant, the A-50Eh (Ehksport, export). This programme, known as Project No 5, is thought to cover the lease of two test and evaluation A-50 aircraft to be followed by the acquisition of three to six A-50Ehs. The programme is reportedly due for completion by 2005 with each aircraft costing $180 million-$200 million. According to JDW sources, the A-50Eh radar is able to detect a cruise missile-sized target in ground/sea clutter at ranges of up to 463km.Taiwanese sources allege that a secret A-50Eh deal was concluded with Russia last year. Taiwanese press reports also state that the A-50s have been exercising with People’s Liberation Army Air Force Su-27 (J-11) and Su-30MKK aircraft. The sudden appearance of Chinese A-50s in the Nanjing Military Region, so near the Taiwan Strait, has caused consternation in Taiwan and represents a major shift in China’s ability to conduct integrated offensive air operations
Lol. At 1998, Russia didn’t have the technology to successfuly complete development of slot array radars. NIIP Tikhomirov decided to bypass the slotted array generation to phase array.
so what is this than? Isnt this from 80s technology. and NIIP was dealing with passive phased array since 70s MIG-31. why they have to go backwards.
Flight International, Feb 3, 1993
Mikoyan has proposed a new update for the Indian air force’s MiG-21 Fishbeds, based on fitting the aircraft with mission avionics derived from the MiG-29 Fulcrum.
The aircraft, known as the MiG-21I, is based on the MiG21bis update. The main change would involve fitting a new radar supplied by the Russian company Phazatron.
The Kopyo radar has a track while-scan capability for up to eight targets simultaneously and a 45km (25nm) detection range against a MiG-21. Radar modes include vertical scan with auto lock-on in close range combat, real beam and synthetic aperture ground mapping with picture zoom and freeze capability, and read-out of surface target co-ordinates. A head-up display is also fitted
In 1996, China considered and perhaps even signed, to acquire Su-27SMK for J-11 production. The plane uses the Zhuk-27, or the Zhuk intended for Su-27. Obviously it didn’t work because a few years later China was getting the MKK which still uses the twist Cassegrain N001VEP with R-77 and TV guided weapon features. Zhuk-27 was abandoned for the Zhuk-MS, which is based on the improved Zhuk-M and hoped that for the later MKKs. But in 2001, that didn’t come through either. China wanted the Zhuk-MSE for the Su-30MK2, but had to settle for an improved variant of the N001VEP. By 2004-2005, China had lost its patience, stopped the ordering of Su-30s. Zhuk MSE only finished its development, testing and certification in 2004 aboard the Su-33UB.
or perhaps Zhuk-27 more expensive than the other and providing incremental capability. so why bother. It is not like big jump to Irbis. and Zhuk-MSE is just bigger antenna of Zhuk-Me of MIG-29. and since no one ordered so why bother with costly flight tests with Flanker. It is byproduct from MIG-29 program.
For that matter, China also aborted its planned purchase of 100 Zhuk-8IIs for the J-8II and the Zhemchug (aka Zhuk-ME) for the J-10s.
No one has said about the deal. It is just possibility. the other is clear from ITAR-TASS, KOMMERSANT, AVIATION WEEK. there is no second opinion about this.
In 1995, China was already testing KLJ-1 radar onboard a J-8C, a plane that also reported to have been testing the ELTA M 2034 (sounds like a variant of the 2035 used in the Lavi). In 1998, China was already testing JL-10A aboard a JH-7 prototype.
China can test alot of things byitself just like that Cheap Antonov variants but for that u need Antonov help. let alone doing some thing ILyusian. which is on different level.
If you have the facility to overhaul the IL-76, you certainly could convert it. Furthermore, the modifications to the A-50I were not made by the Russians but by the Israelis, and they differ quite from the Beriev planes.
offcourse u have the facility but when u got the facility if at all? and Israel has no access to IL-76 data. thats why they were running to Russians for 3 years for India. there is alot of things behind this and i dont want to go into this.
Actually you will be surprised. How many variations of the Y-8 have we seen so far?
With Round Rotodome
With Balance beam phase array
With JSTARS like SAR radar
With side scanning antennas and ECM work
With Litton radar for MPA work
With Skywatch radar for AEW work
With C31
With ELINT
and Y-8 is building for how many years and how many u have rotodomes? the balance beam is far easier part. Dont assume that u can copy one product u can do with the other.
They certainly knew how to mod the Y-8.
and they certainly know how to build Y-8.
As for the IL-76, they had it long enough to understand how to modify it obviously. Its far from a new plane.
thats why they have to wait 3 from 1996 deal signing to 1999 product delivery to Israel from Russia and than again wait untill 2002 for the same A-50.
Your credibiltiy is low for attributing a fan based website.[/QUOTE]
star49What do you mean? Selling radars is not technical cooperation in helping China to develop radars. The only technical cooperation you get is installing and integrating the Russian radars to the said planes.
selling radar is not a technical cooperation just like OLS-31MK IRST or AL-31 engines.
The problem with you is that you are unable to verify if the article is true or not in the long run. Showing articles does not make you right if you don’t have the brains and the research to validate them further.
I have researched it thoroughly. Neither China nor Israel not even the Uzbekistan plant has any access to airframe data from Ilyusin.
FI also said things like the Su-30MKK getting Phaztron Zhuks starting from the 21st plane which turned out NOT to be true. FI also said China ordered 100 Zhuks for J-8IIs in 2001 which also turned out NOT to be true.
Note the english words. Likely to be equpped. It is not written it is a deal.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2001/11/27/139415/KnAAPO+to+fill+Chinese+fighter+order+.html
The newly ordered fighters are likely to be equipped with the Phazotron-NIIR Zhuk-MS multimode radar in place of the Su-27’s N-001, which equips in-service Su-30MKKs. China is also considering a batch of twin-seat Su-27s for its naval aviation force
We have already seen pictures of the JL-10A. The servos of the antenna certainly do NOT match that of the Zhuks. The JL-10A also lacks the abilities to use the R-73, R-27 and R-77 as well as Russian SAPSAN and antiship weapons like the Kh-35.
why it has to look like Zhuk? FC-1/J-10 look like MIG-29/Su-27.
On the FC-1, Phazotron proposed the Kopyo-F, not the Zhuks.
Kopyo slot array is derived from orginal Zhuk-m of 80s. it is just antenna size difference. it was demonstrated to Indians in early 1993. the other is just antenna change from slot to passive phased array like they are now doing it to AFAR.
Because China did not allow Type 226 radar to be exported, and that radar can use the PL-8 and subsequent variants. The Grifo 7 while it has a more advanced slotted array, is forced to use AAMs that are not as good as the PL-8, which is essentially an improved Python 3.
what a radar has anything to do with a missile now.
That incremental modification is not incremental at all. China has changed the seeker completely on the PL-8B/PL-9C. It retained the Python 3 airframe because changing to a new airframe means changing all the launch rails in the entire PLAAF. Personally I don’t think the Python 4/5 airframe offers anything more than the Python 3. What’s really important is the seeker and the motor. For the PL-9C, China increased the range of the missile from 15km of the Python 3 to 22km. The only difference between the PL-9C and the PL-8B is the shape of the fins, which I don’t would matter much aerodynamically but only a lame attempt to give the PL-9C some kind of “identity”. China also has increased the FOV of the PL-8B to 60 degrees off bore using gimbals and has enabled the missile to use helmet sights. The seeker uses InSb elements, has four arrays each looking at a different part of the specturm. The seeker is also liquid nitrogen cooled.
China has nothing like Python4/5. Even the latest R-73 which entering this year are beyond anything China can develop by itself. and there is big gap in R-73 development because of Ukranian issue.
China is pretty satisfied with this missile so that it does not even bother copying or licensing the R-73 or adapting the said missile to their domestic planes.
and that R-73 belongs to 80s technlogy a little better than Python 3 but not python 4. so why copy or adopt to other planes.
star49the whole world has to wait for years just to get a single A-50 participation and people here claiming 4 in 3 years.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1997/09/10/20622/GEC+steps+up+Il-76+AEW+efforts.html
It is understood that GEC-Marconi has met Russian and Chinese ofÌcials recently to try to resolve the issue. In exchange for supplying proprietary design information to the UK company, to enable it to make the necessary structural modiÌcations, the Russians are asking for a share of the programm
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1998/05/27/37524/GEC-Marconi’s+Chi…
The air force’s Project 932 office, tasked with overseeing its AEW requirements, apparently believes that fitting the IAI system into the Russian aircraft is technically more risky than adding the bi-polar Argus
star49Untill Nov 2002 China does not even have engine overhaul capability let alone doing anything with airframe life, modification, testing. with old aero plane. Russia didnot even allow Israeli any data for Chinese/Indian planes. The airplane sent to China in summer 2002 was striped in presence of US personal.
Russia’s Saturn to set up facility for aircraft engine repairs in China
ZHUHAI, China. Nov 5 (Interfax-AVN) – Russia’s Saturn research and production association has got an official proposal from the Tianli aircraft research and industrial corporation to set up a facility for licensed repairs of engines for the IL-76 Candid planes on the basis of a Chinese enterprise.
“During the international aerospace exhibition Airshow China 2002, Saturn got an official proposal from the Tianli company, which is authorized by the Chinese Air Force, concerning creation of a facility for licensed repairs of engines for planes of this type,” Saturn Commercial Director Vasily Danilov told Interfax- Military News Agency on Tuesday.
The aircraft plant in Xian will serve as a basis for the facility, he said.
“Establishment of the facility is extremely pressing given that China is planning to expand its stock of engines for planes of this type. A Russian-Chinese contract for the supplies of IL- be signed before the end of the year. Pre-contract work is in progress in the framework of official negotiations,” Danilov said.
China is operating 20 IL-76 planes, thus, it has 80 aircraft engines in operation, he noted. The planes were sold to China yet in Soviet times.
Saturn is exhibiting a broad range of aircraft engines for military and civilian planes and helicopters at Airshow China 2002, one of the largest aerospace exhibitions in the Asia- Pacific region.
In particular, participants in the show can study specifications of the D30KP2 aircraft engine powering the IL-76 transport plane and its modifications that are operated in China, among other countries.
$250m just for participation in IAF project. No airframe data transfer.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2002/10/08/155962/Russia+puts+Il-76+deal+in+jeopardy.html
08/10/02
SOURCE:Flight International
Russia puts Il-76 deal in jeopardy
Russia is demanding a more substantial role in the $1 billion programme, which Israeli sources say includes allowing Russian companies to fit some electronics systems. The Russians are also understood to be seeking royalties on the deal. Previous Russian participation has been limited to building the Il-76s, while Beriev has fitted the non-rotating antenna mounting and radome on the upper rear fuselage.Israel’s prime minster Ariel Sharon raised the subject with Russian president Vladimir Putin during a trip to Moscow last week.
star49SMIC independently develops 90 nm process for commercial use
SMIC-Cadence Reference Flow 3.0
(FOR ENERGY-EFFICIENT 90 NANOMETER SOC DESIGNS)
http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5KD1M0A32GCMCQSNDLPCKHSCJUNN2JVN?articleID=55300237&_requestid=699455
Chang said that SMIC was able to develop a 90-nm process, thanks to a 193-nm scanner. The tool was reportedly procured from one of its main lithography suppliers — ASML Holding NV of the Netherlands.
come back when u develop some thing which does not exist before. Okno Space tracking station that Russia built 2 decades and still nothing comes close to its capability with thousands of objects track every day.
star49So you may be surprised to find out who’s the shareholder behind the south Korean company you mentioned!
it is the same thing buying others but u cant buy defence firms in other countries. so u always remain behind.
star49Before you accuse other people of ignorance, did you even read the article? It didn’tc ome from Russia, it came from a Russian and this Russian, like many skillfull engineers, are now working abroad. The company he works for now, Intel, is America. People can talk about how much Russia is improving but ever since it’s opened up, scientists and other skilled people can go anywhere they want, especially places that pay them better.
Intel just hried the individuals and design team is still there but they have doubled it. but what makes u think they dont have more talented people. there is talent for every one. and Since China open up earlier so they should be ahead.
http://news.com.com/Intel+ramps+up+Russian+R&%2338;D/2100-1006_3-5219356.html
“Instead of outsourcing to them, we hired them,” Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy said. “This is a rare opportunity, where you can get intact design teams
Elbrus MCST and Unipro were privately held, but originally grew out of Russian government projects
China’s advances in processors is vital towards the development of advance radars like AESAs that require heavy processing.
processor is vital but thats not the point.
the question is aesa will come indegenously like Phazotron is doing ZHUK-MAE.
star49I don’t want to argue how advanced is the Godson 2E but it’s by far the best CPU ever made outsider US and it’s not a just lab product but going to commercialize soon, do take this news into account, the CPU is made from the wafer supplied by this foundry. The rating is not done by me but Isuppli, you’re not challenging me but the reputed organization in IT and semiconductor industries.
u are not understanding the point. the point is this. from ur own link.
“A joint venture of this magnitude is likely to be the largest of its kind between a Korean and European company,” said Carlo Bozotti, President and CEO of STMicroelectronics
and now this. whats the difference between two examples?
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060831/53369258.html
Russia’s first automatic gearboxes are designed by the Bauman Moscow State Technical University’s design bureau, which is presenting the world’s first 7-speed automatic gearbox at the show, along with a 6-speed model.
so tommorrow if a 7 speed automatic gearbox comes out in China so what it will mean who can discover and explore un known things on scientific basis not merely reproducing millions of same stuff which already exist.
So they are offering Irbis-E, probably also a product 15 years lag behind the rest of the world if according to your logic?! Do remember, they only got Chinese indigenous radar product to compete, if Chinese level is 15 years behind the world level, They can comfortably sell their legacy radar products.
There can be alot of reasons. China interested in buying technology without fanfare like they have agreement of confidentiality. and Chinese military complex also has to keep its jobs otherwise what will they be doing. they cannot export high end stuff any way.PLAAF is there captive market.
star49Or really, have a close check on the Godson 2E CPU a 90nm processor developed by Chinese scientists.
So next time when you come across a Godson powered PC made by Lonovo, don’t be too much surprised. Anyway, it’s good news for consumers like you and me.
so u created an earlier pentium 4 processor on old process technology and now claiming that u lead this segment. not knowing that whole 64 bit technology came from russia a decade ago. Russia has to help West the technologies which does not exist let alone follow some thing from asia.
u are confusing decreasing cost factory production with theoretical science and this thing does not work in defence sector.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/02/16/russian.secret.idg/
http://www.pldesignline.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193200327
Barbanel said it is misleading to classify Russia as an “emerging market” in the same vein as China, India or Brazil
“I would classify it as on the road to a ‘restructured market,’ because it has all been here all along–the talent, resources and growth areas. They don’t have to start from scratch. They led in many tech areas” under the Soviets
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=89191&d=26&m=11&y=2006
Here are the principal research and development offices of Nokia. There are 800 other high tech companies, some overflowing their expertise into neighboring Russia where they see the future “beckoning”, in the words of Pertti Huuskonen, the boss of Technopolis, which is just building a big facility close to St. Petersburg airport. There are probably more Ph.D.s per square meter in this compact old paper-milling town than anywhere else on earth
Chinese made great progress in the PD radar area in recent years as acknowledged by no other but Russians. So for next generation radar developments, like those fashionable AESA, actually the principle of the newer radar still the same, but the features are enriched by the introduction of active T/R units and greater computing power that backs up the use of such active array. In these 2 areas, T/R units are a semiconductor issue and computing power more a chip design issue, where China seems to have better industries,
According NIIP China radar technology is 15 year behind the rest of the world.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33719&page=12&pp=30
NIIP sources told JDW that, in their experience, local progress in radar development has been slow and China’s capabilities still lag about 15 years behind the leading edge of radar technology
Sign In
