Again, STATE what your beliefs are toward KJ-2000 and that alone. It’s kind of hard to tell what you think half of the time. On one hand, you are saying that China got A-50 platforms from the Russians. On the other hand, when I mention which IL-76 got converted, you are questioning what’s inside. State it clearly. I hate it when you consistently bringing new stuff into this debate that has nothing to do with the debate.

I must ask, are you h177 from PDF?

What this has anything to do with beliefs. I posted the information from so many sources and u havent provided anything from even a single source to condridict it. and i dont go other forms.

where did I say that? Read my comments about Kanwa in the past. It’s very consistent. Kanwa is not the most accurate source, but when it comes to reporting what Russians delivered to China and what Russian companies said in interviews, it’s quite accurate.

so kanwa is 100% accurate and the rest are not.

So you are one of those people that believe J-10 uses Zhemchug or not? Answer the question.

it is not about zhemcheng. it is the technlogy to build slot modern radar.

No, it’s about the date rather than anything else. People thought one way in 2000-2002, but now they’ve had to revise on their beliefs. Just read Richard Fisher articles, he had to change his assessment of numerous Chinese systems multiple times. And this guy reports to the American congress. Reason is that when new evidences are revealed, it changes people’s conclusions.

where is new evidence to change conclusions about A-50?

And yes, your articles from 2000 are proven wrong. If you bothered opening your eyes and look at a few photos, you would see that.

how it is wrong.

And yes, Richard Fisher has revised to the conclusion that KJ-2000 uses AESA radar produced indigenously. Why don’t you find an in-service Russian AWACS that uses AESA radar?

and where is Russian in service Bars and so many other things.

You are saying China can’t produce 4 set of radars in 3 years?

I am saying converting 4 IL-76 into A-50 in 3 years. U just cant buy old IL-76 from market and do it without having the data. otherwise China would have done this instead of buying new as russia is not buying new but extending current life. and where is ur indigenous IL-78 tanker.
U are not smarter than UK/Israel.

They’ve built even more other surveillence platforms in even less time. Just look at the numerous Y-8J, Y-8 AEW and KJ-200 platforms they converted.

how many Y-8 AEW and KJ-200 do u have and when the program started? maybe 2 or 3 each and it is nothing comapred to IL-76.

Look at the number of surveillence radar they produced in the last few years for the different Y-8 platforms. And remember, KJ-2000 has a lot higher priority inside plaaf than Y-8 platforms. Are you going to claim they bought them all from Russia?

u dont have that many Y-8 with antennas and i am sure it started long time before KJ-2000.

Are you comparing Chinese technology to Indian technology?

I am comparing Chinese to Russian/Israel.

Yes, China invested a lot of money in this.

so it has bought the technology.

Are you talking about this site?
http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17specifications.html
It makes no mention of WS-13 or RD-93. And seriously, it looks like a little kid did the page.

so any thing that goes against ur stated belief so kids must be doing it. they are calling RD-93 license version as WS-13. so there is no point in calling it indigenous.

China may also develop its own power plant for the FC-1, although it is also possible that the co-produced version of the Klimov RD-93, called the WS-13, will equip future FC-1s

Russia never formally sold any slot array radar to China other than evaluation samples. China has considered and negotiated for buying slotted array radars from Russia, but in the end, these negotiations were dropped. Russia and any magazine never reported an actual completed sale, and if there was such a sale, it would have made the headlines considering how much the Russians were hyping so confidently that the sales were done deals even before they were actually signed—which they never did.

they are very confident of Technical cooperation increasing. but Chinese has said to remain quite.
Is that not enough what they are publicly saying?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1998/…evelopment.html
DATE:04/03/98
SOURCE:Flight International
China/Pakistan signal intent to resume FC-1 development work

An indigenous pulse Doppler radar, the JL-10A, is being pursued by Chinese electronics specialist CLETRI , with help from Russia.

The planar antenna is from Phazotron, as is the transmitter. While this radar may be intended for the Chengdu F-10 programme, a smaller variant may be pushed for the FC-
Chengdu has received design assistance on the FC-1 from Russia’s MIG MAPO, with engine manufacturer Klimov proposing a version of the MiG-29 Fulcrum’s RD-33 powerplant

I am sure u can find Space based radar development from UN register.

Russia’s Fazotron-NIIR developing new radars

PARIS. June 20 (Interfax-AVN) – Russia’s Fazotron-NIIR corporation is developing several new types of airborne radars.

“We are developing a radar to equip small-size spacecraft at order of certain Russian firms. It is a very promising field of activity that is only starting to develop,” Anatoly Kanashchenkov, the corporation’s director general and designer general, told a news conference at Paris Air Show 2005 that finished on Sunday.

The corporation is also developing space-based radar for China in cooperation with some of its partners, he said.

And China have been developing fighter radar since the sixties. They included radars for the J-8I, J-8II, the J-7M, the JH-7, Q-5, J-7C/D and the J-7E. Certainly not the best in the world nor even the most reliable, but each of them are valuable learning steps. Israel and dual use electronic technologies also provided valuable technological assistance and foundations that helped move China to develop slotted array radars and starting in 1995, the KLJ-1 was already being tested on the J-8C, and in 1998, the JL-10A was already being tested on JH-7 083 prototype.

Yes China has been developing radars from 1960s thats Why Pakistan put Grifos on F-7 in 90s and later when China become reach in 21st century it just bough russian technology and put it for radars like FC-1.

The fact that these radars are used to fire missiles with more Western design attributes (PL-11 -> Sparrow, PL-8 -> Python 3, YJ-81 -> Exocet/Harpoon) tells you that these radars are learned and developed with more of Western basis of technology, and the most likely source for this information is Israel. The fact that these planes never ever once shown any use of Russian missiles like R-73 and R-27 despite tons of them in the PLAAF inventory, also shows a lack of compatibility with these misisles, which is something you don’t expect a Russian sourced radar would.

It is software that is the issue. any modern radar and u can mix east and west weopons. Frankly if Chinese indigenous r&d so good. should we be seeing Python 5 in export market from China since Python 3 tech was sold some 2 decades ago. what we have is some incremental modification after 2 decades when israeli left.

They do have a conversion and overhaul facility for IL-76 in China. That’s already documented in photographs. As for Beriev antenna, the Phalcon antenna is of the same design. Looks to me more like Beriev following Phalcon. By the way, how many ways can you actually design a rotodome with a 3 faced phase arrays.

It is not just design. it is structure and aerodynamics.
China built by themselves or Russia built for it for overhauling?. and overhauling does not mean u can modify airframe. A lot of countries operate IL-76 but no one can make AWACS out it including very advance countries like UK where GEC Argus can only put in front not on the Top. U havent study IL-76 and continously speculating.

DATE:13/11/96
SOURCE:Flight International
GEC-Marconi struggles for Il-76 data
Paul Lewis/ZHUHAI

GEC-Marconi is facing difficulty in obtaining the design specifications from Ilyushin needed to modify its Il-76 transport to take the Argus 2000 airborne early-warning (AEW) sys- tem, now being offered to China.

There has been some “foot-dragging” on the part of the Russians to supply GEC-Marconi with the necessary drawings, say industry sources

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1996/07/17/8480/Israel+presses+Russia+in+bid+to+clear+way+for+China+AEW.html
Israel presses Russia in bid to clear way for China AEW deal
Ari Egozi/TEL AVIV

THE ISRAELI Government is pressing Russia to approve the sale of an Ilyushin Il-76 Candid, to allow Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) to conclude a deal to convert the aircraft into a Phalcon radar-equipped airborne early-warning platform for China
When the negotiations began in 1994, China had a requirement for four AEW aircraft worth around $1 billion. Budget problems have reduced the first deal to one aircraft – possibly as a testbed

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/1997/03/19/173/Russia+agrees+Il-76+sale+to+IAI+for+AEW.html
The agreement is understood to have been struck during Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s recent discussions in Moscow with Russian president Boris Yeltsin.

IAI is competing with GEC-Marconi, which is offering the Argus AEW system, also based on an Il-76.

It is unclear whether GEC has managed to strike a similar deal to secure access to the Il-76 airframe

You mean you want to believe on your myth that the WS-13 does not exist when it is so listed in Chinese goverment websites.

the myth that WS-13 is indegenous when PAC website is putting WS-13 as license product.

While Russia may be slightly ahead in few areas, the point is that, China is/has (been) advancing somewhat exponentially, while Russia, somewhat linearly. China’s civilian electronics technology is far ahead of Russian, there is a good probability that Chinese AWACS may be better than Russian (assuming both countries are using internally developed/manufactured components).

what is the meaning of technology?

Unfortunately if they did sell the A-50 license, the Russians would have admitted it and Rossoboronexport has to formally disclose it. It will have to go through the Russian General Staff and Putin would need to approve it. The size of such deal isn’t going to escape public attention or the sheer enthusiasm to advertise such a truimph for marketing purposes.

Russians have clearly said that they are barred from telling everything. and specially anything related to technolgy transfer. they called it Military-Technical cooperation. and Rossoboronexport was established on Nov 4,2000 and working start properly two year later.

Speaking about development prospects of Russian-Chinese military-technical cooperation, he noted that the work with China is thoroughly pre-planned. “Our Chinese colleagues and we meet on the level of the intergovernmental military-technical cooperation commission once a year to analyze the state of our cooperation and prospects for next year,” he said
He did not disclose cooperation volumes, saying only that they are quite large
Federal Military Technical Cooperation Service deputy head Alexander Denisov

this is from Nov, 2000 Washington Post.

http://www.nautilus.org/VietnamFOIA/archives/pub/ftp/npp/001119WP_RussRadar.txt
Speaking to reporters, Manilov underscored Russia’s commitment to
bolster China’s forces. “The current staff talks enabled us to make
headway in all areas of military and military-technological
cooperation,” he said, adding that Russia was ready to supply the
Chinese armed forces with everything required for its national security
The system is similar in function to a U.S.-built AWACS plane. It
comprises a modified Il-76 transport plane and a radar made by the
Moscow Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Engineering that is
capable of coordinating up to 30 of China’s aircraft at one time and
tracking 200 targets over a 500-mile radius. The radar probably will be
an upgraded version not yet in Russian service and customized for China

how AviationWeek excatly knew back in 2000 that 4 will be supplied by 2005.? which is the case now. why it is not 2 or 6?

http://www.nautilus.org/VietnamFOIA/archives/napsnet/dr/0012/DEC04.html#item8
Aviation Week and Space Technology (David A. Fulghum, “CHINA SLIPS PAST U.S. AWACS BAN,” Washington 12/04/00, 31) reported that Russian officials said that Russia will lend the PRC two airborne radar surveillance aircraft for three years and then sell them up to four advanced A-50E airborne warning and control systems (AWACS). The deal is to be completed by 2005, according to both US and Russian officials.
The radar is expected to take three years for production, tests and integration into the aircraft. [Ed. note: This article was included in the US Department of Defense’s Early Bird news service for December 4, 2000

Given the date of the article, it only means that Salut has changed their tone just lately, and only because they realized how soon the Chinese engine projects are close to completion. Back in the nineties, that was not certainly the case. China was viewed with much greater suspicion then and we know a fact then the Russians would deliberately withold technology. Don’t compare the situation in 1995 and 2005.

salut hasnt changed its mind. China never asked for. and in 1995 China may not even have the money for license or they couldnot forsee the deman or there is also be internal industrail opposition or there is promise of indigenous product at that time (like Kaveri promises). there could be number of reasons for not getting it. u can see this from the FC-1 biggest customer when they put WS-13 as license product not indigneous.

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/jf17.html
Powerplant: one 49.4 kN (11,103 lb st) dry or 84.4 kN (18,969 lb st) with afterburner Klimov RD-93 turbofan or equivalent co-produced WS-13 turbofan

The conversion of the engine test bed was done in Russia. But the 3 Mainrings are clearly done in China (there are pictures of an IL-76 conversion and overhaul facility in China). They feature details such as dual ventral fins that are not present in the Beriev version of the Mainstay.

so they cant build conversion and overhaul facilities for china. u need alot of wind tunneling for antenna. and it is not even necessay that there Beriev version will be the same or look like the same.

http://www.nautilus.org/VietnamFOIA/archives/pub/ftp/npp/001119WP_RussRadar.txt
Most troubling to some Western military attaches is the presence in
China of Russian technical experts who are believed to be helping China
develop cruise missile technology and improve the quality of its nuclear
forces

Moscow, Dec. 17 (PTI): Russia and China today signed a defence cooperation protocol under which Beijing will buy USD two billion worth of Russian arms and weapon systems and technologies next year.

The protocol signed by Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, and his visiting Chinese counterpart, Gen Cao Gangchuan, at the end of the regular session of the Sino-Russian Commission, sets the detailed schedule for defence interaction between Beijing and Moscow in 2004 to bring them closer to the 30-70 ratio between serially produced weapons and prospective defence technologies.

Given the similarities of the KJ-2000 radar to the Phalcon, it stands more likely that China may have reaped enough information from the Israelis to do this project. The original A-50I plane itself, that was slated for the Phalcon and which became the first KJ-2000 ultimately, was modified with Israeli assistance. That is a mighty head start at least for the airframe and flight purposes.

Isrealis can do nothing with IL-76 platform. they have to directly aproach russia to allow Indian sell. It took 3 years for them.

As far as I know, the problem was not resolved until representatives of the Israeli Defense Ministry, at a military exhibition in Paris, approached Andrei Nikolaev, then-chairman of the State Duma Defense Committee. Stripped of diplomatic jargon, the gist of the Israeli complaint was this: “Boys, let us make money, and then you too will be able to make money; but if we fail to cut a deal, both countries will be left empty-handed.” On returning to Moscow, the Duma committee chairman wrote a letter to the president, and then the contract formalities were straightened out

Sorry, but technical data also means giving construction details if you have engineers that are capable of analyzing the information. Furthermore it is quite likely that Chinese engineers are able to look at the Phalcon close enough, and given how much IAI had been in China and trying to secure Chinese contracts (radar for the J-8II, J-10 and J-7 for example), it stands Israel have their share of contribution with the sudden emergence of Chinese radar systems.

nope. it is russia selling there slot array technolgy for fighter radars. Israelis are much clever in selling technologies. they sell the end product. look at India.
note the world similar technolgies.

Now Islamabad has received positive signals from Moscow regarding the sale of Russian planes, said the sources. Russian technology is very similar to that being used by the Chinese so would not be a problem for Pakistan, the sources said.

http://www.royfc.com/news/may/2903may02.html

In the opinion of specialists, today more than 30 percent of the worldwide fleet and over 80 percent of the Russian fleet of combat airplanes have BRLS and weapons control systems developed by Fazotron.

Up to 80 percent of the volume of the corporation’s production is export product, which is today the main source of Fazotron-NIIR growth

The Chinese built a system that is simiilar to the Erieye, to the MPQ-53 used in the Patriot, to a near AEGIS like system in their destroyers without any formal assistance from Europe or the US. What makes you think they would have trouble doing a similar thing to the Phalcon and with a headstart provided by the Israelis themselves.

so do u think every thing is indigenous. or there is foreign marks on every thing.?

superhornet top speed is given only Mach 1.6 with 7.6g for land version. 15.5ton empty weight also on heavier side.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

Except that at that time, Sukhoi badly needs the money, and it’s not going to turn it back on 2.5 billion. Besides the Su-27SK was fairly obsolete at that time and it does not pose competition against the more advanced Flankers. That is why Sukhoi was selling the MKK later to China even as J-11s are being built.

the same can be said about every thing else like Engines/Awacs. u sell the licenses of current versions and produce newer quickly to sell it later.

Irrelevant. The Chinese engine projects appear to have been undergoing for years. Russians have no financial interest in speeding them up. The more years the Chinese engines don’t hit the operational service, the more the yearly window the Russians can sell their engines.

Russian wouldnt make any difference. as they take money for what they provide in advance.

Except that Russia knows China isn’t going to build and buy that many Flankers. They signed up for 200 kits, which was cut down by half anyway. Whereas the potential market for the J-10 engines was anywhere between 1200 to 1500 engines. Plus another 500 engines for the FC-1. As the Russians was also hoping for radar sales on both J-10 and FC-1, you’re looking at the same quantity of fighter radars they hoped to sell.

That’s a lot more than the Flankers.

and Russia also knows that China cannot make 1500 J-10 and 500 FC-1 in a single year. it is 2000 to 3000 engines the most worth $6 to $7B over 30 year time. so it is better to take money now for licensing, documentation and infrastructure upfront rather than wait for 30 years for realization. there is some thing called Time Value of Money. and the money invested today in R&D is better for future profits and domestic consumption.

Produce the source.

I posted last year from interfax. that person is deputy head of technical cooperation.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=704595&highlight=Al-31#post704595
According to Yeliseyev, outright procurement is being discussed now, but it is also possible that the engine will be manufactured in China on license if it wishes

Your source is against the common knowledge that the engine license was never allowed in the first place and never was included in the bargaining table.

common knowledge doesnot work because there is nothing anywhere that officially that states that Russia does not allow licenses or joint developments. May be the price is high or there is internal resistence from Chinese Industrial sector because they also want to keep jobs. there can be any number of reasons.

That’s bull. The IL-76 was produced in a plant in Kazakhastan which has been found out to be gutted and abandoned. To restart the IL-76 production in a plant in Russia, it turns out that it would require a significant investment and price increase that the Russians cannot adhere to the contract they signed with the Chinese. Chances are high the contract will be cancelled.

IL-76 is not produced in Kazakistan. It is only produced in Uzbekistan. and now they have appointed an new person to head the firm and contract is going to be fullfilled. factory is in working condition. where do u think IAF IL-76 are coming from. even they have to go back to russia for upgradation.

As for Antonov not having an aircraft in that category you must be plain kidding.

so u are going to put radar on An-124.
that is also produced in russian factory. Most of new IL-76 are with Volga Dnpr and they arent going to sell.

Still they converted 3 of these old IL-76s into AWACS. China also bought another second hand IL-76 and converted that into an engine testbed.

that is the question. who did it?